Running Thunderhill Backward (clockwise), I really had a GREAT time! Options

[nine14cats]

I ran the PCA-GGR 2 day time trial this past weekend at Thunderhill. 3 mile course in the reverse direction (clockwise) from the normally run direction. Pre-event feedback was that is wasn't a fun direction and was slower by an average of 2 to 5 seconds than going the normal way. I'd have to say that I must be in the minority because I just had a great time running it backwards!

While I enjoy running Buttonwillow both ways, the relative flatness of Buttonwillow makes it feel like the same course. Running THill in reverse direction gives it a whole new flavor. It feels significantly different to me. And it presents technical challenges that are new to me as well. With several steep, uphill elevation changes you are taking blind turns going up and over, versus going up and down in the normal direction. In fact, I'll have an in-car video cut down tonight or tomorrow to show what it's like.

My class is shaping up to be a close one for year end points. Of the 3 Time Trials that have been held, I have placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I currently hold the points lead but just barely. My competition is an experienced road racer in a car almost identical to mine in power/wt and an excellent Boxster AX driver who is learning to drive a 1850lb / 375HP 911 with no windshied or roof. We're actually having alot of fun and are debriefing each other about what we're seeing and sharing lines. I'd have to say we're sharing and learning from each other and basically having a good time, which is what the time trials should be about in my opinion.

At the start of the weekend I was WAY OFF the pace of the group of drivers I usually measure myself against. They were running 2:10's and I was running 2:18's. I run 2:07's in the regular direction, so I was sucking wind big time. For whatever reason I was not running the car even remotely hard. So I gave up my last session in my car to an excellent road racer, Rich Walton of Jerry Woods Enterprises and just went for the ride. Rich ran the car for about 15 minutes and ripped off some nice quick laps that got my adrenaline going. That night I went back to the hotel and replayed the lines Rich ran, which were significantly different than mine. By the time the next morning rolled around I had it in my head what I wanted to do.

First session in the morning I burned off a 2:09.5! That was almost an 8.5 second improvement from the day before! Talk about being happy....it made my weekend... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) I ended up running a 2:09.2 in the time trial and really should have had low 8's or high 7's as I f'd up the timed runs by fish tailing around at the top of turn 5/5A on each of the timed runs.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

A few of the turns that are really fun going in reverse direction is coming from 2 into 1 for the long straight. Because of the runout room going in that direction, you can get on full throttle and early apex that turn. It is downhill and you just accelerate through that turn like you won't believe. And the blind run up turn 9 is steep and ends at a short table top before a significant right hander. If you hold your foot into it going up the hill into 9, you have to pre-visualize the brake point and turn because you won't have time to do it when you get there.

If anyone gets a chance to run THill in reverse, try it out. Several people don't like it, but I found it to be a wonderful time with a great group of friends!

Can't wait to drive it in that direction again!

Video to come.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif)

Bill P.

[Brad Roberts]

Sooo... Gary is running his red car again this year?

I scare myself. I can easily visualize everything you mentioned (in both directions) I miss that track.

You need to come down to Willow Springs and run flat out in 5th gear into 8 at 135mph. That one single corner will teach you a LOT about you and the car.

I can hear the excitement in your "voice". Rich has to be one of the fastest 911 drivers in all of CA. He really needs a ride in the IMSA Challenge Cup. He came through the ranks like most pro's.. under powered cars.. and lots of momentum.


B

[nine14cats]

Sooo... Gary is running his red car again this year?

I scare myself. I can easily visualize everything you mentioned (in both directions) I miss that track.

You need to come down to Willow Springs and run flat out in 5th gear into 8 at 135mph. That one single corner will teach you a LOT about you and the car.

I can hear the excitement in your "voice". Rich has to be one of the fastest 911 drivers in all of CA. He really needs a ride in the IMSA Challenge Cup. He came through the ranks like most pro's.. under powered cars.. and lots of momentum.


B

B,

It's not Gary's car. Ken Short of Boxster AX fame bought Ray Dicius' 911 track car, the one built by Matt Lowrance. That thing is quick! I guess 375HP in 1850lbs will do that..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

At Thill I can get my car up to 134MPH in 4th gear. I'd really like to play with the ratios and get them closer, but that will have to wait for a while.

Rich Walton can turn 2:03's in his Toyo Cup car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) .....that is simply amazing...

Bill P.

[Brad Roberts]

Ahh yes. The "replica" to Gary's!

MOM down here is/was maintaining Ray's 944 Spec car. Good guy.

Have you ever driven on the Toyo's? His 2:03 is more of miracle than you will ever know..LOL (unless you have driven on them)

I think the best I ever did in the old config in Yeamans 3.0 9146 on 205 Hoosiers was a 2:09 CCW. I have never run it CW. I think it would be fun either way. I'm going to run Buttonwillow backwards with that open run group in a few weeks. Should be interesting. It only took me 3-4 laps at Streets of Willow to "get" that track backwards from my first run there.

I wish I could have been at your TT event.


B

[9146R]

Myson Mike and I ran last weekend with Bill clockwise at Thill. From being totally freeked out Sat am 1st and 2nd run groups...we both felt the track coming to us by the afternoon. Come Sunday we were cookin perdy good. Mike took a run with John Seidel in his purple 914 and came back VERY IMPRESSED with John's skills and the goodyear slix. Mike dialed in a 2:18 but didnt quite get the old timer yet...my best was 2:17.46. Would run cw again any time. New Hoosiers worked great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mueba.gif)

[DanT]

So guys....tell us about the "incident" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Trekkor]

I heard some rumblings about blown red flags and rear enders resulting in a car fire...No injuries.


KT

[DanT]

I heard some rumblings about blown red flags and rear enders resulting in a car fire...No injuries.


KT

Yes that is correct....I have heard the story but wanted to get it from someone that was actually there...I heard it happened in the Blue/Green (teal) run group. Thought Bill might have some direct information.

[grantsfo]

I heard some rumblings about blown red flags and rear enders resulting in a car fire...No injuries.


KT

Yes that is correct....I have heard the story but wanted to get it from someone that was actually there...I heard it happened in the Blue/Green (teal) run group. Thought Bill might have some direct information.

I thought PCA events were safe and sane? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Glad no one was hurt.

[DanT]

Accidents can happen on a track with any group at any time...
Most of them happen due to driver error, lack of attention, etc....not usually due to the organization that is putting on the event. We can only provide the safest venue-atmosphere possible....then it is up to the individual drivers to obey the rules, be observant, drive defensively at all times....period.
From what I have gathered so far about this shunt, the driver that did the hitting of the stopped car, blew a red flag situation on the track....not to mention hitting a car with another 20+ feet of track width to go around the car....
Driver was driving between the fenders and not looking up at flag stations or ahead on the track...

[Trekkor]

I know some have been unhappy with the corner workers and may have blamed that on one org or another.

As far as I know, each track maintains a staff of their own men in white.


KT

[DanT]

I know some have been unhappy with the corner workers and may have blamed that on one org or another.

As far as I know, each track maintains a staff of their own men in white.


KT

That is what is happening as of the last few years....before that GGR had a group of SCCA workers that we would pull from for each of our events.

We had much more control of who was working for us and how they performed.
Now we have much less control.

I have worked with many of the SCCA turn workers at Sears, TH, BW and Laguna.
Most are decent folks with lots of experience, I doubt blame could be laid at their door for this one.

If one driver saw the red flag and stopped then why didn't the offending driver see the red flag obey it? Sounds to me as the turn workers were doing their jobs.

Sounds like driver error/lack of attention to me...plain and simple...period.

[nine14cats]

I was there and it was during my run session. I actually have the accident on my in-car camera from across the track...you can only make out the hit and the ensuing push into the infield, where the fire started.

The incident occured during a red flag incident. Chris Cox's car had broken down and she pulled off in the run off area between 15 and 14. As I was following her, I was one of the first to receive the red flag after going through the turn into the 13-12-11 area of the track. The Thunderhill workers had pulled out the red flags, but some of them were waving them, others holding them. Red flags are a "check your mirrors and pull offline to a stop where safe" type of flag and seeing waving red flags makes you stop in a hurry. I was all alone on this section of track with Chris, so I was able to stop safely and then proceed around the track into the pits under a continued red flag situation. The corner workers were waving me to continue my low speed lap into the pits.

As Chris and I were leading the pack, the rest of the cars were behind me. By the time I reached the pits, a full lap from where the stalled car was situated, the accident occured across the track somehere between 7 and 6. This is a very high speed section of track. A 911 tagged the rear of a slowing 944 Turbo AT SPEED! The impact sent the 944 into the infield grass and ruptured the fuel tank (no fuel cell in the car) and the high pressure fuel lines were spewing fuel at a high rate. The car immediately caught on fire from either the impact or the exhaust and fuel contacting each other. The 944 went up almost immediately. Milo climbed out of the car without being hurt but had to watch most of his car go up in flames. The 911 driver was okay as well. As far as damage, I'd say both cars could be called total wrecks, but the could be rebuilt given time and money. The 944 had fiberglass flares and lexan windows and all of that melted. The interior, including belts, seats and dash were melted as well. The engine may be the only thing left. The 911 had it's air bags deploy and the front suspension points in the car were moved back.

What I don't know is if the 944 had pulled off line or was still on line when the accident occured. From my video it looks like he was moving slowly, probably following the same hand signals as I did only moment earlier through the same section of track.

But the kicker is the 911 driver. I saw these red flags waving and directing me through the track BEFORE he got there. The 944 saw them and was going slow. The 911 driver hit the 911 AT SPEED or near it! In one of the fastest parts of Thunderhill. That means that the 911 driver had to go through turn worker stations from turn 15 through turn 7 and either did not see the flags or chose to drive at a very fast "safety" lap speed. And even though this accident occured in a high speed portion of the track, it does offer great visibility. If you are looking ahead past the apex of 7 he should have seen what was going on. Even then, the track is very wide from 7 to 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

I just don't get it. You would literally have to be looking 5 feet in front of the car and nowhere else to just run up Milo's backside. Scary stuff. And it's why I'm constantly looking in my mirrors and way ahead at what's going on. Probably a leftover habit from my street motorcycle riding days where you look ahead and plan where you might need to go if something were to happen in front of you.

My opinion is that the waving red flags for a car half a track away were at least part of the cause for the accident. I can see the red flags close to the car, but maybe yellow or a black flag instead on the other side of the course?

Utlimately the drivers still have to take the majority of the responsibility, whether it be slowing down on the race line ( I don't know if this is the case), or in the case of the 911, going too fast in a caution situation and not looking ahead.

The hit was bad enough that following the accident, several of the driver's that witnessed the accident called it quits and left before running for time. It's rather unsettling to see things like this.

Bill P.

[Brad Roberts]

Probably a leftover habit from my street motorcycle riding days where you look ahead and plan where you are going to safely get through something that "may" happen in front of you.

You learn this exact same thing by pulling any type of trailer with a decent sized truck.

Sorry to hear about this accident. I'm really really surprised.


B

[DanT]

Thanks for the input Bill.

As to the throwing of the red flag full course....

Whenever there is a severe incident, like car to car or impact with barrier. The first thing we want to do is get all the cars stopped so we can send out emergency vehicles( sometimes counter course) After that has occurred and the safety vehicles are on scene we use the full course black to clear the track after the incident site.
If there is a way to get the rest of the cars off that are before the incident, then they are directed by the turn workers to use bypasses or access roads to clear the track, only at the direct superision of the track steward/chief communication steward.

sounds like this is what was happening. Also now at TH they will not tow a car from the track while it is Green flag. If we need TH to tow a vehicle from the track we have to clear the track so they will send out THEIR tow truck...
If we use OUR safety truck to flat tow a disabled car then we can use our usual set of yellow and white cover flags for the flat tow.
This is something that TH instituted late last year. If we send out their tow truck we have to red flag the session.


And I agree after years riding motorcycles on the street, and towing trailers, driving big rigs and busses, my habits are to watch my mirrors closely at all times and watch waaaaaaay ahead of myself on the track.

[Brad Roberts]

I forced a certain young german lady we all know to drive my crew cab and flat bed trailer with a 964 RS race car from SD to Laguna and back. To drive in LA traffic with a truck and trailer.. you had better be aware. JUST like riding a motorcycle. Worry about everyone around you. It taught her to look WAY ahead and anticipate LIFE (basically).

I'm always amazed at how some people just dont get it. I guess they are not exposed to motorcycles/trucks/trailers. Growing up in automatic Honda's and then jumping to 300hp 911's.. cant imagine why you would have issues..LOL


B

[nine14cats]

I forced a certain young german lady we all know to drive my crew cab and flat bed trailer with a 964 RS race car from SD to Laguna and back. To drive in LA traffic with a truck and trailer.. you had better be aware. JUST like riding a motorcycle. Worry about everyone around you. It taught her to look WAY ahead and anticipate LIFE (basically).

I'm always amazed at how some people just dont get it. I guess they are not exposed to motorcycles/trucks/trailers. Growing up in automatic Honda's and then jumping to 300hp 911's.. cant imagine why you would have issues..LOL


B

Yeah...don't you just love it when you leave that nice, fat safety zone between your rig and the car/truck in front of you and all those cars on each side of you just dart in and out of the spacing? Or the ones that come flying up beside you and dive in thinking that you can stop like a car can? I sometimes get more nervous pulling my trailer getting to an event than I do racing my car on the track....

Bill P.

[grantsfo]

I was there and it was during my run session. I actually have the accident on my in-car camera from across the track...you can only make out the hit and the ensuing push into the infield, where the fire started.

The incident occured during a red flag incident. Chris Cox's car had broken down and she pulled off in the run off area between 15 and 14. As I was following her I was one of the first to receive the red flag after going through the turn into the 13-12-11 area of the track. The Thunderhill workers had pulled out the red flags, but some of them were waving them, others holding them. Red flags are a "check your mirrors and pull offline to a stop type of flag" and seeing waving red flags makes you stop in a hurry. I was all alone on this section of track with Chris, so I was able to stop safely and then proceed around the track into the pits under a continued red flag situation. The corner workers were waving me to continue my low speed lamp into the pits.

As Chris and I were leading the pack, the rest of the cars were behind me. By the time I reached the pits, a full lap from where the stalled car was situated, the accident occured across the track somehere between 7 and 6. This is a very high speed section of track. A 911 tagged the rear of a slowing 944 Turbo AT SPEED! The impact sent the 944 into the infield grass and ruptured the fuel tank (no fuel cell in the car) and the high pressure fuel lines were spewing fuel at a high rate. The car immediately caught on fire from either the impact or the exhaust, fuel contact and the car went up almost immediately. Milo climbed out of the car without being hurt but had to watch most of his car go up in flames. The 911 driver was okay as well. As far as damage, I'd say both cars could be called total wrecks, but the could be rebuilt given time and money. The 944 had alot of fiberglass flare and lexan and all of that melted. The interior, including belts, seat and dash were melted as well. The engine may be the only thing left. The 911 had it's air bags deploy and the front suspension points in the car were moved back.

What I don't know is if the 944 had pulled off line or was still on line when the accident occured. From my video it looks like he was moving slowly, probably following the same hand signals as I did only moment earlier through the same section of track.

But the kicker is the 911 driver. I saw these red flags waving and directing me through the track BEFORE he got there. The 944 saw them and was going slow. The 911 driver hit the 911 AT SPEED or near it! In one of the fastest parts of Thunderhill. That means that the 911 driver had to go through turn worker stations from turn 15 through turn 7 and either did not see the flags or choice to drive at a very fast "safety" lap speed. And even though this accident occured in a high speed portion of the track, it does offer great visibility. If you are looking ahead past the apex of 7 he should have seen what was going on. Even then, the track is very wide from 7 to 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

I just don't get it. You would literally have to be looking 5 feet in front of the car and nowhere else to just run up Milo's backside. Scary stuff. And it's why I'm constantly looking in my mirrors and way ahead at what's going on. Probably a leftover habit from my street motorcycle riding days where you look ahead and plan where you are going to safely get through something that "may" happen in front of you.

My opinion is that the waving red flags for a car half a track away were at least part of the cause for the accident. I can see the red flags close to the car, but maybe yellow or a black flag instead on the other side of the course?

Utlimately the drivers still have to take the majority of the responsibility, whether it be slowing down on the race line ( I don't know if this is the case), or in the case of the 911, going too fast in a caution situation and not looking ahead.

The hit was bad enough that following the accident, several of the driver's that witnessed the accident called it quits and left before running for time. It's rather unsettling to see things like this.

Bill P.

YIKES! They are so lucky no one was hurt. How does somone blow through red flags at several corners at speed? I guess the other thing is how do you run into somone if you have clear visbility? Sounds like the driver may have been sick or overheated?

[nine14cats]

I don't think he was sick or overheated. I know the 944 guy he hit was beside himself looking at his wrecked car. The 911 driver was pretty lose and smiling as his car was being towed in. I don't know the gentlemen personally, but he seemed pretty loose. Perhaps he is very even keeled during stressfull situations.

Bill P.

[DanT]

Or perhaps he is a/an _________; fill in your suggested description. The guy should have been over talking to Milo and asking what he could do for him.
Several years ago we had another rear ender at TH. The culprit put his car on his trailer and left without ever saying a word to anyone, including the drivers of the 2 cars he hit other than his own.

situations like this make me very upset/introspective/mad.

What we do on track is dangerous to a certain extent....we don't need unattentive, unresponsive, uninvolved drivers to be on track with us.


Hopefully the guy will get home and realize he should do the right thing...
contact Milo and try to make him whole again...in whatever way he can...

And then find another sport/activity to spend his time and money with.