 GGR AX #7 at Alameda, Saturday Sept. 9 |
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| DanT |
 Sep 4 2006, 05:18 PM
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#1
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Going back to the Dark Side!  Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None  |
Who is in? Usual suspects?
How about Demick, Trekkor, Randal, BillP, BillD....Grant, Rob? Lots of fun like this Attached image(s) 
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| Trekkor |
Sep 4 2006, 06:23 PM
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#2
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Depends on if I get my rear wing built and installed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chairfall.gif)
KT |
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| Trekkor |
Sep 4 2006, 06:25 PM
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#3
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Just kidding...
It's ten year anniversary weekend and I don't know if that would be such a good idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) KT |
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| nine14cats |
Sep 4 2006, 06:40 PM
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#4
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Bill Pickering -- 914-6 GT aka....Leeloo Group: Members Posts: 2,618 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Campbell, CA Member No.: 287 Region Association: None |
I wil be there co-driving Fritz.
Should be fun! Bill P. |
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| DanT |
Sep 4 2006, 09:15 PM
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#5
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(nine14cats @ Sep 4 2006, 05:40 PM)  I wil be there co-driving Fritz. Should be fun! Bill P. Would that be with Doris or Randal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hopefully we will get a nice 914 course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) |
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| grantsfo |
Sep 4 2006, 09:23 PM
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#6
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 08:15 PM) QUOTE(nine14cats @ Sep 4 2006, 05:40 PM) I wil be there co-driving Fritz. Should be fun! Bill P. Would that be with Doris or Randal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hopefully we will get a nice 914 course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) I dont care what kind of course it is as long as it is wider than my car this time! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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| DanT |
Sep 4 2006, 09:48 PM
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#7
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Sep 4 2006, 08:23 PM) QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 08:15 PM) QUOTE(nine14cats @ Sep 4 2006, 05:40 PM) I wil be there co-driving Fritz. Should be fun! Bill P. Would that be with Doris or Randal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hopefully we will get a nice 914 course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) I dont care what kind of course it is as long as it is wider than my car this time! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Grant, I should be there for set up so I will make sure it is at least the GGR min...if not a tad bit wider (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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| Trekkor |
Sep 4 2006, 10:27 PM
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#8
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
I'm working the angles...
KT |
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| ConeDodger |
Sep 4 2006, 11:28 PM
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#9
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,562 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California 
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QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 04:18 PM) Who is in? Usual suspects? How about Demick, Trekkor, Randal, BillP, BillD....Grant, Rob? Lots of fun like this I don't know... who designed this course? I am still a little tweeked about that debacle in June... |
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| DanT |
Sep 4 2006, 11:31 PM
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#10
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Sep 4 2006, 10:28 PM) QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 04:18 PM) Who is in? Usual suspects? How about Demick, Trekkor, Randal, BillP, BillD....Grant, Rob? Lots of fun like this I don't know... who designed this course? I am still a little tweeked about that debacle in June... ?????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) |
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| ConeDodger |
Sep 4 2006, 11:59 PM
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#11
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,562 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California
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QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 10:31 PM) QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Sep 4 2006, 10:28 PM) QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 04:18 PM) Who is in? Usual suspects? How about Demick, Trekkor, Randal, BillP, BillD....Grant, Rob? Lots of fun like this I don't know... who designed this course? I am still a little tweeked about that debacle in June... ?????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Sea of cones when cones were not needed, few cones when they were, way tight on the back side before the end of the course. At least 25% of the first runs were DNF including me and I don't even appear in the results. (not an exageration. Check the results) I thought the course was unsafe as cars were just losing the track and course workers were running. I am not even sure the course met GGR guidelines. Eventmaster said when asked, that the course had been chalked that morning and that it had all blown away. I just packed up and went home. 100 miles down, 100 miles back $35 and one DNF. I registered for the SCCA Shriners event the same day so it wasn't a total lost weekend. To add insult to that, after I politely informed the trailer that I was withdrawing, someone came to tell me that I needed to be out on the course with my work group while I was packing up. Eventmaster even had the stones to tell everyone at the drivers meeting that "if you like the course..." Well, you know the rest. Sorry... But you did put 6 question marks. I will get over it. I am just more careful about what events I choose now. |
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| DanT |
Sep 5 2006, 12:03 AM
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#12
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
Sorry you had a bad experience....
Hopefully GGR can make it up to you in the future... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| Trekkor |
Sep 5 2006, 12:13 AM
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#13
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
That may have been the event where my motor mount started to let go.
Let's face it, some courses are just garbage. I don't like a "forced" course. The track should be easy to learn, no tricks, no fake outs. Smooth driving should always be rewarded. When I encounter a course that chokes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif), I know that it is hard for everyone. I just try my best and look foward to better times. It's amazing to me that some designers have such a concept in mind when laying out the course, but don't realize that the course is going to be a flop. Rob, let's ride together at the next a/x. KT |
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| grantsfo |
Sep 5 2006, 10:06 AM
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#14
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Sep 4 2006, 11:13 PM) That may have been the event where my motor mount started to let go. Let's face it, some courses are just garbage. I don't like a "forced" course. The track should be easy to learn, no tricks, no fake outs. Smooth driving should always be rewarded. When I encounter a course that chokes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif), I know that it is hard for everyone. I just try my best and look foward to better times. It's amazing to me that some designers have such a concept in mind when laying out the course, but don't realize that the course is going to be a flop. Rob, let's ride together at the next a/x. KT I agree. While GGR events offer great competition often the courses are setup in a confusing style with lots of cones. However I now just look at that as an extra challenge. |
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| ConeDodger |
Sep 5 2006, 11:05 AM
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#15
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,562 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California
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QUOTE(grantsfo @ Sep 5 2006, 09:06 AM) QUOTE(trekkor @ Sep 4 2006, 11:13 PM) That may have been the event where my motor mount started to let go. Let's face it, some courses are just garbage. I don't like a "forced" course. The track should be easy to learn, no tricks, no fake outs. Smooth driving should always be rewarded. When I encounter a course that chokes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif), I know that it is hard for everyone. I just try my best and look foward to better times. It's amazing to me that some designers have such a concept in mind when laying out the course, but don't realize that the course is going to be a flop. Rob, let's ride together at the next a/x. KT I agree. While GGR events offer great competition often the courses are setup in a confusing style with lots of cones. However I now just look at that as an extra challenge. That is one way of looking at it Grant, and I appreciate that perspective. I think that the fault lies with me. If I didn't have to drive 100 miles to their autocrosses my expectations might be lower. But given that 200 mile commute, I come expecting the "big boys of Zone 7" to put on a good show. It also might not be so tender about it if more GGR guys showed up at SVR events. Someone in SVR was disscussing this with me and they put it best. "GGR has the best venues, they have a ton of local autocrossers, but the new guys are not yet up to the reputation guys like Larry Sharp built". The statement by the eventmaster was particularly disturbing given this state of affairs. "If you like the course, tell me. If you don't, keep it to yourself". I am a teacher, albeit of complex medical subject matter. When I have a new student interning with me I tell them this, "assume everything I say is bull. Try to prove me wrong, and if in trying to prove me wrong you prove me right you have learned more than if you just accept what I say". Believe me when I say some have proven me wrong. I learn from them as well. I would have been much more likely to come back even the next week if he had said, Hey, we learn something new everytime we do this... Dan this is in no way personal. I can see that you make an effort to go to and help at as many events as your other obligations allow. I can see you love it the way I do. At any rate, your question was about who is going to Alameda. My plans are fluid. I am on vacation but my current plan is to try and get someone to go with me to GAF in Ventura. That plan is fading. So it is possible... |
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| ConeDodger |
Sep 5 2006, 11:12 AM
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#16
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,562 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California
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QUOTE(grantsfo @ Sep 5 2006, 09:06 AM) QUOTE(trekkor @ Sep 4 2006, 11:13 PM) That may have been the event where my motor mount started to let go. Let's face it, some courses are just garbage. I don't like a "forced" course. The track should be easy to learn, no tricks, no fake outs. Smooth driving should always be rewarded. When I encounter a course that chokes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif), I know that it is hard for everyone. I just try my best and look foward to better times. It's amazing to me that some designers have such a concept in mind when laying out the course, but don't realize that the course is going to be a flop. Rob, let's ride together at the next a/x. KT I wish Grant or Trekkor had been at this event but they weren't. It would be great if these guys had been there as I respect them and I would have been able to bounce my concerns off of them. Maybe I am wrong. But I really think GGR should take a look at the statistical analysis of the results. Just my preliminary look at the first run of the 100 or so participants shows 25% of first runs were DNF. That screams much louder than I can... People were just plain lost. I agree. While GGR events offer great competition often the courses are setup in a confusing style with lots of cones. However I now just look at that as an extra challenge. |
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| Randal |
Sep 5 2006, 01:41 PM
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#17
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Sep 4 2006, 10:59 PM) QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 10:31 PM) QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Sep 4 2006, 10:28 PM) QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Sep 4 2006, 04:18 PM) Who is in? Usual suspects? How about Demick, Trekkor, Randal, BillP, BillD....Grant, Rob? Lots of fun like this I don't know... who designed this course? I am still a little tweeked about that debacle in June... ?????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Sea of cones when cones were not needed, few cones when they were, way tight on the back side before the end of the course. At least 25% of the first runs were DNF including me and I don't even appear in the results. (not an exageration. Check the results) I thought the course was unsafe as cars were just losing the track and course workers were running. I am not even sure the course met GGR guidelines. Eventmaster said when asked, that the course had been chalked that morning and that it had all blown away. I just packed up and went home. 100 miles down, 100 miles back $35 and one DNF. I registered for the SCCA Shriners event the same day so it wasn't a total lost weekend. To add insult to that, after I politely informed the trailer that I was withdrawing, someone came to tell me that I needed to be out on the course with my work group while I was packing up. Eventmaster even had the stones to tell everyone at the drivers meeting that "if you like the course..." Well, you know the rest. Sorry... But you did put 6 question marks. I will get over it. I am just more careful about what events I choose now. No one likes the courses you described. I hated them so much that I volunteered to start designing courses, and then spent a lot of time studying the "masters" of autox so that my courses would have all the best characteristics. I also try to give feedback to the GGR Autox chairperson after running each course. I always remind them of the materials available and ask whether or not they are suggesting this documentation, as required reading, to new course designers. This does seem to help, but as usual some of the designers always do a good job and others struggle. On the other hand I’m really sorry that the event you decided to attended ended up being a NFC (no fun course). Most events are really pretty good, but we do get those NFC’s stinkers from time to time. On a higher note I know Bill Daly has read all the base documentation and is reviewing all course designs before they are implemented. Bill does pay attention and can cite verse for verse the good design principals….so maybe we will see less of the NFC’s. |
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| nine14cats |
Sep 5 2006, 03:57 PM
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#18
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Bill Pickering -- 914-6 GT aka....Leeloo Group: Members Posts: 2,618 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Campbell, CA Member No.: 287 Region Association: None |
Yeah, I remember the June Alameda AX. The course was very tough for me to read. And for others as well. 26 out of the 107 drivers DNF'd on their first run. 23 out of the 107 DNF'd on their second run and 9 DNF'd on their third run. That's a pretty high DNF rate if you ask me.
I just thought I was having a bad days since I DNF'd on 3 of my runs, sucked on 2 runs, put down a decent 7th run that got me 4th overall for the day, then sat out my final run with a flat tire. Overall, that course was close to my least favorite ever at Alameda. It was just too right angle for my tastes and didn't flow at all. It's always tough on the course designers. I know that this year, there have been more courses designed by a diverse number of people, so there probably is a learning curve. And I do know that early on, a few of the course were not wide enough in certain spots. And it's not just because of I have a wide ass 911. I like the courses that flow and allow you the opportunity to interpret and take different lines, not the courses that lead you by the nose with a sea of tightly spaced cones. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to devote to learning and designing courses (not yet anyway) so I just show up and run what's there. And I do know that people put a ton of effort into putting the AX's on, so I try not to give them too bad of a time. I'm glad to hear the AX chairs are educating themselves on course design reviews. That being said....I sure hope it's a 911 course this Saturday! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) Bill P. |
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| Randal |
Sep 5 2006, 04:51 PM
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#19
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
QUOTE(nine14cats @ Sep 5 2006, 02:57 PM) Yeah, I remember the June Alameda AX. The course was very tough for me to read. And for others as well. 26 out of the 107 drivers DNF'd on their first run. 23 out of the 107 DNF'd on their second run and 9 DNF'd on their third run. That's a pretty high DNF rate if you ask me. I just thought I was having a bad days since I DNF'd on 3 of my runs, sucked on 2 runs, put down a decent 7th run that got me 4th overall for the day, then sat out my final run with a flat tire. Overall, that course was close to my least favorite ever at Alameda. It was just too right angle for my tastes and didn't flow at all. It's always tough on the course designers. I know that this year, there have been more courses designed by a diverse number of people, so there probably is a learning curve. And I do know that early on, a few of the course were not wide enough in certain spots. And it's not just because of I have a wide ass 911. I like the courses that flow and allow you the opportunity to interpret and take different lines, not the courses that lead you by the nose with a sea of tightly spaced cones. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to devote to learning and designing courses (not yet anyway) so I just show up and run what's there. And I do know that people put a ton of effort into putting the AX's on, so I try not to give them too bad of a time. I'm glad to hear the AX chairs are educating themselves on course design reviews. That being said....I sure hope it's a 911 course this Saturday! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) Bill P. Count me in on that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| Trekkor |
Sep 5 2006, 06:23 PM
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#20
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
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