Goodbye to Michael, End of an era at Ferrari Options

[Sammy]

Lots of sour grapes and favorites here, but short on logic.
F1 is full of politics and tactics. Always has been, always will be. The only reason MS is known for it is because he gets all the press and attention. Don't use that for an excuse to hate him.
If you don't appreciate his driving skills, say so. But his being the greatest driver ever has nothing to do with if someone likes his personality or not.
I can't think of a single modern day champion that didn't do what it took to win. Senna, Prost, Lauda, all were at least as cut throat as MS, probably more. It is part of the system they compete in.
As far as that mass-dampening device goes, how many people on this board really know all the details about that? show of hands?

I remember when the dodge boys got caught cheating in drag racing. The rumor was they had NOS hidden in the blocks of their pro stock engines. Their shop got "broken into" and all their blocks got smashed up.
They decided to "leave" NHRA and never return. Eventually they allowed Alderman and Scott Geffreon (sp?) to return as drivers, but they were watched really close.
A major scandal would have been bad for NHRA so they covered it up and everyone looked the other way, just like a major cheating scandal would be bad for F1. The point is, we really don't know what was up with that mass dampening device, do we? Maybe it was just a case of trying to level out the playing field, maybe it was intentionally giving ferrari an advantage, maybe it was an illegal device and something other than was described but covered up to prevent a scandal. Who knows? They do, we don't.

I was listening to Patrick Patternie a month ago or so telling stories, one was about having dinner with MS.
Someone asked MS what he did for fun, (besides winning F1 races).

Michael said he likes riding his Harley davidson motorcycles. When asked which model of harley he has, he replied "all of them". I get the feeling he can do pretty much anything he wants now.

I would personally like to see him buy a struggling small F1 team and build it up uintil it dominates the sport. He is capable of doing that despite the political resistance he would get. No doubt he could draw major sponsorship money, enough to outdo most factory teams.
Then when Bernie gets pissed and tries to slap him down, MS could start a competing F1 type of series and put that asshat bernie out of business. Or, he could start a mutiny in F1 among all the owners and drivers that bernie has pissed off, then he could could take over F1 and clean house at the FIA. Yeah, that would be cool.
Probably won't happen but I can dream.

[URY914]

[quote name='Gustl' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:01 AM' post='768553']

[/quote]


I absolutely disagree ...

There's no doubt that MSC ist the most successful driver ever, but I'd say he's far away from being the best driver ever. Very often he played absolutely unfair. He had the luck to go through an area where the driver didn't count that much. He had all the technique that made driving easier, he had the team with the best strategy, even if the car wasn't always the best. His team mates were not competitive - and if they had a good day, team order told them to stay behind him.
Remember back for about 20 years. The drivers had to decide on their own what to do in their cars, without team radio. They had to decide how much rpm they have to use on start (without launch control) and in the corners (without anti wheel spin control) and they had to decide at what rpm to shift up and down. Not to speak from the manual shifting.
In these days the whole races took place at the track, not at the pit. We saw more overtaking on the track, today everything's under control of the commanders in the pit. So the drivers just have to do what they're told.
Well, I do know that it needs a good driver to do what the pit crew wants you to, but you don't need be that good as you had to be earlier.
I think this is why we had more different champions in the past - and I think this will be the same in the future.

I'd say, MSC is a brilliant driver. But he's not as good that he diserves being 7 or 8 times world champion. 3 or 4 times champion would be enaugh.


just my 2 cent ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif) Gustl
[/quote]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) VERY hard to compare drivers when the technology has changed so much in the last 20-30 years. How can you say MS was better than Fangio when they never raced in the same era?

[Jeroen]

best driver ever... if that was true, he wouldn't have needed to apply demolition-derby tactics to win his championships...

[Brett W]

Jackie Stewart for ever.

[Howard]

Guess I'm getting old, but..
Professional sports today just ain't what they used to be. Mega million $$ owners/sponsors hire mega million $$ 'stars'. Some of these stars are great folks, I'm sure, but many seem to be pompous asswipes that really let you know they're the best, but just do it for the money. They throw tantrums that set a bad example for wannabes. Throwing tennis raquets and disputing every call was a big fad for a while. I just hope blocking a faster car doesn't become popular.

Nothing bad to say about Schumi, but I'd rather watch club racers. Football? Friday nights at the local High School. They came to play.

20 years from now someone will say, 'Remember 2006? Those were the good old days."

[jhadler]

I for one think that Schumacher can easilly be consered one of the "greats" of F1. Agressive? You bet! Cut-throat? Without a doubt! But can you name one "great" of professional motorsports who wasn't that?

Senna, Fanjio, Hill, Earnhardt, Force... Make a list. It takes more than just pure, raw, unadulterated talent to succeed in professional motorsports. It takes agression, and determination too. And marketing is a skill a modern race car driver cannot be without. Sure, Schumi has rubbed tires with a number of other drivers, sure, he's been involved in some "questionable", and even a few obviously over-the-line tactics. But name me one multi-time champion that hasn't?

I think his achievements are a combination of many factors. Talent, there's no doubt he's got mad skills. Agressive, sure, he'd have to be. Lucky, you bet! But in this day of huge money racing, where teams spend more on a season of racing than the GDP of many small countries, where the rules are being changed on a regular basis to try induce some parity to the field, it's just as impressive to see someone so consistantly rise to the top. Sure, Ferrari is BIG, BIG, BIG money. But hey, so is McClaren, Renault, Williams, and others. Michael had the good fortune to be on the team that got it right more times than not. Could he have won so big on another team? Maybe, maybe not.

Oh, and not all his wins came while driving a red car either... He used to drive for other teams too you know! And won more than a couple races driving for Benetton, and garnered two championships with them before going to Ferrari.

Could he have won all those races if Senna hadn't died? No one will ever know, but I have little doubt that had Senna not died, this same kind of conversation would very well have come up about Ayrton instead. He wasn't exactly a poster boy for "sedate driving" when on the track either. But he won. And won, and won... And was a true sportsman. If anyone should ever be called a "Great", it was Ayrton Senna.

I for one will miss watching Michael drive. His ability to pull out fast laps when it counted most were great to watch. And the rain? Especially in the wet, he was absolutely masterfull when it rained.

As for what he does now? Kinda like asking what do you do with a 900 lb gorilla?

Anything he wants...

Man has more money than most of those same small countries I mentioned. I'd imagine his trophy room has more square footage than my whole house, and his garrage could probably make Jay Leno weep...

I'd love to see him stay involved in motorsports. But he has kids that he probably hasn't seen enough of over the years. Why wouldn't he want to spend some time with them??

I also would like to see him leave with another championship. So yeah, maybe I'm a little biased.

-Josh2

[jhadler]

best driver ever... if that was true, he wouldn't have needed to apply demolition-derby tactics to win his championships...

Oh come on. Name me one multi-time champion that didn't push and shove to get to the front of the line...

-Josh2

[SGB]

Agressive driving - to include blocking- has certainly been employed by past champs, it was blatent corner cutting and the quilifying debacle that solidified my opinion of his personality, and to me that overshadows his more "admirable" traits. He seemed pretty desparate lately...

[jhadler]

Agressive driving - to include blocking- has certainly been employed by past champs, it was blatent corner cutting and the quilifying debacle that solidified my opinion of his personality, and to me that overshadows his more "admirable" traits. He seemed pretty desparate lately...

I'll agree that his stunt this year have been a bit more than par. But at the same, the stewards haven't been exactly making rational judgements either. They could have, and should have, penalzied Miachael for cutting the chicane twice. And his retirement later still netted him a point, which probably would have still stood if he were penalized. As for the rediculous penalty against Alonzo? I think it was absurd. What was he suppose to do? Pull over????? Puhlease.... He should have started from the third row, not the fifth. That was a redicuous call. Point was moot though after Alonzo's motor blew in such spectacular fashion.

Heh, makes me wonder what Alonzo was thinking by going to McClaren. They have an A+ driver in Kimi who rarely has a car that can carry him to the end of the race. Alonzo knows this, but is still going to a team with pretty bad reliability problems...

Oh well, should be fun to watch the last races of the season anyway. Gonna be close now. And after all, this is a -show-, contrary to what others would like it to be. So they're making it entertaining for the spectators. Which are paying the big money to watch.

-Josh2

[BMXerror]

Just heard the news at the end of the Monza race...it will be Shu's last, and only 3 more for Ferrari. Ferrari has 190 victories in F1 and Shu has 90 of them...say what you will but this guy is something. I doubt any of his numbers will ever be equaled with the trends in F1 these days...a privlege to have seen him run. Jim (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) Five world titles and maybe six...

WAIT WAIT WAIT!! If Schumi can continue to be brutally tongue lashed in just a moment.... Are you saying that Ferrari is leaving F1 too?!?! If so, I think that's the retirment we should really be concerned about. They've been in f1 forever.
Mark D.

[blitZ]

The commentators on SpeedVision hinted that the Fiat Prez, who Schumaker avoided like the devil, was possibly wanting him to retire. I'm sure Ferrari is paying him a nice chuck of change for his services. Schumaker slapped $20M down for the tsunami victims. They are probably looking for cheaper, younger talent. It's like any other pro sport, it's a business and the money is the motivator.

I think some of the rulings this year have spoiled this season. Hopefully, next year will be more interesting with the driver/team changes. Kubica is incredible and has barely got his feet wet.

[jhadler]

WAIT WAIT WAIT!! If Schumi can continue to be brutally tongue lashed in just a moment.... Are you saying that Ferrari is leaving F1 too?!?! If so, I think that's the retirment we should really be concerned about. They've been in f1 forever.
Mark D.

Well, I think the scuttlebutt is that Jean Todt will leave if Schumi leaves. I doubt that Ferrari would leave F1, but it's possible they might leave the podium if Schumi and Todt walk together...

-Josh2

[Gustl]

Heh, makes me wonder what Alonzo was thinking by going to McClaren. They have an A+ driver in Kimi who rarely has a car that can carry him to the end of the race. Alonzo knows this, but is still going to a team with pretty bad reliability problems...

maybe the very same that MSC thought when he left the winning team Benetton towards the very bad team Ferrari at the end of '95 season?
it took more that 4 years to get another world champion trophy - the first for Ferrari within the last 21 years!!

my guess - it's a big challenge!!

Oh well, should be fun to watch the last races of the season anyway. Gonna be close now. And after all, this is a -show-, contrary to what others would like it to be. So they're making it entertaining for the spectators. Which are paying the big money to watch.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Gustl]

Are you saying that Ferrari is leaving F1 too?!?!

NO - definitely not

Ferrari continues racing ...

They are probably looking for cheaper, younger talent.

the next years Ferrari team is already official:
Kimi RÄIKKÖNEN
Felipe MASSA

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif) Gustl

[Sammy]

Jackie Stewart was also known as a "very aggressive" driver who would put you in the weeds rather than let you pass.
I've seen several interviews with other drivers who competed with him who made that claim.
I'm not trying to take anythnig away from Sir Stewart, just saying that is part of driving F1.

[Brett W]

Earnhardt was the same way. Sometimes you need to "move" a slower driver.

[Pat Garvey]

I for one think that Schumacher can easilly be consered one of the "greats" of F1. Agressive? You bet! Cut-throat? Without a doubt! But can you name one "great" of professional motorsports who wasn't that?

Senna, Fanjio, Hill, Earnhardt, Force... Make a list. It takes more than just pure, raw, unadulterated talent to succeed in professional motorsports. It takes agression, and determination too. And marketing is a skill a modern race car driver cannot be without. Sure, Schumi has rubbed tires with a number of other drivers, sure, he's been involved in some "questionable", and even a few obviously over-the-line tactics. But name me one multi-time champion that hasn't?

I think his achievements are a combination of many factors. Talent, there's no doubt he's got mad skills. Agressive, sure, he'd have to be. Lucky, you bet! But in this day of huge money racing, where teams spend more on a season of racing than the GDP of many small countries, where the rules are being changed on a regular basis to try induce some parity to the field, it's just as impressive to see someone so consistantly rise to the top. Sure, Ferrari is BIG, BIG, BIG money. But hey, so is McClaren, Renault, Williams, and others. Michael had the good fortune to be on the team that got it right more times than not. Could he have won so big on another team? Maybe, maybe not.

Oh, and not all his wins came while driving a red car either... He used to drive for other teams too you know! And won more than a couple races driving for Benetton, and garnered two championships with them before going to Ferrari.

Could he have won all those races if Senna hadn't died? No one will ever know, but I have little doubt that had Senna not died, this same kind of conversation would very well have come up about Ayrton instead. He wasn't exactly a poster boy for "sedate driving" when on the track either. But he won. And won, and won... And was a true sportsman. If anyone should ever be called a "Great", it was Ayrton Senna.

I for one will miss watching Michael drive. His ability to pull out fast laps when it counted most were great to watch. And the rain? Especially in the wet, he was absolutely masterfull when it rained.

As for what he does now? Kinda like asking what do you do with a 900 lb gorilla?

Anything he wants...

Man has more money than most of those same small countries I mentioned. I'd imagine his trophy room has more square footage than my whole house, and his garrage could probably make Jay Leno weep...

I'd love to see him stay involved in motorsports. But he has kids that he probably hasn't seen enough of over the years. Why wouldn't he want to spend some time with them??

I also would like to see him leave with another championship. So yeah, maybe I'm a little biased.

-Josh2

Pretty much agree here, with some exceptions. First, John Force can't even be in the mix - there's nothing to do but surround yourself with the best staff & be the best with your reactions in funnny car. My former company was a Force sponsor & I met with him many times. He IS agressive, but by reaction training - no control of any kind over the opposing driver. He's also one of the BEST marketing guys in racing. Win or lose, the cameras seek him out for his prose - guy's never had a bad day & gets his sponsors on TV every race! Still...doesn't belong in the aforementioned group.

Is he better then Senna or Lauda? Hard to say - those careers were ended before they peaked. Better than Fangio? Different skills involved. Smart like Stewart? Yup! Done it all - enjoy your life & family for a change. Aggressive? You bet! No driver in any wheel-to-wheel driving gets to be the best without taking advantage of the rules. The days of the "gentleman racer" ended with Graham Hill.

Like him? Dunno, never spent any time with him. Appreciate his dominance? How could you not? He's self-made - in whatever he drives - he's great!

I think he's given F1 a shot in the arm & has us paying attention to it again. I also think it's to be great to watch the new breed. I personally don't think anyone is going to dominate F1 in the next couple of years, but there will be someone - there always has been. F1 will continue to be interesting, even if they don't have 6-wheeled cars anymore (I LOVED those things!)