suspension advice., Building vara race car Options

[mtrotter]

Im in the process of building a race car out of my 73 914 and need advice on suspension set ups.

Im looking for torsion bars and sway bars but can only find 23 mm torsion bars for front. I seem to think I might want more but im not sure. Keep in mind im staying with the type4 2.0 and dont plan to exceed 130hp or so.

will 23 mm torsion bars get the job done?

Also, 180lb springs is the best i can find.... i was planning to use 200 or 220 to off set the front being so stiff.

any advice is welcome

Morgan

[nebreitling]

23mm Tbars are pretty damn stiff.... for a 4cyl, i'd stick with 22's or even 21's and then dial out the rest with a sway bar....


as for rears, search for "ground control" here and in the garage: threaded perches to accomodate race springs in whatever rate you want 'em.

my set up

22 t bars
22 sway
225 lbs springs
stock rear sway depending on set-up....

[kart54]

Morgan,
If your looking to run with VARA I would also talk to them and check their rules to see if things have changed. They wouldn't take my 73 914 a year ago. Car was too new. They were only allowing 72 and earlier.
They would allow me to run in an exhibition class but that was it.
I am now the only G prod Porsche in the country running in SCCA.
Randy

[mtrotter]

23mm Tbars are pretty damn stiff.... for a 4cyl, i'd stick with 22's or even 21's and then dial out the rest with a sway bar....


as for rears, search for "ground control" here and in the garage: threaded perches to accomodate race springs in whatever rate you want 'em.

my set up

22 t bars
22 sway
225 lbs springs
stock rear sway depending on set-up....

Where did you get your 225lb springs?

[nebreitling]

summit racing -- again though, these are just generic 2.5"x10" coil springs for the ground control coil over setup. springs are cheap and plentiful, nothing special. they will not fit stock spring perches -- you need the threaded perch conversion.

[mtrotter]

Morgan,
If your looking to run with VARA I would also talk to them and check their rules to see if things have changed. They wouldn't take my 73 914 a year ago. Car was too new. They were only allowing 72 and earlier.
They would allow me to run in an exhibition class but that was it.
I am now the only G prod Porsche in the country running in SCCA.
Randy

the rules say

" Production Group 1, this classification is intended to include cars raced in the USA up to and including 1972. Cars produced after 1973 bur of the same model and specification as pre 1973 model are also eligible"

I hope they let my 73 run.

Also, here is what the rules say about suspension....

Suspension:

"Stock location and geometry including sway bars, shocks, springs etc. After market sway bars may be used. Springs and shocks must be stock type and configuration. Poly bushing may replace rubber. No rod ends on suspension locating joints and no added devices except as noted. One bolt in strut brace is allowed."

Would this include coil overs? its kinda the same configuration...

Thanks,

Morgan

[jhadler]

The factory rear suspension is "coil over" if you really want to look at it. Coil over really is nothing more than the spring coil inserted over the shock body.

Yes, I would totally think that threaded collar spring perches and 2.5" springs shoudl be legal based on that rule. The spring is the same -type- as stock (coil), the location hasn't changed, and the pickup points are roughly in the same place (the adjustable perch might be the only arguing point).

-Josh2

[mtrotter]

The factory rear suspension is "coil over" if you really want to look at it. Coil over really is nothing more than the spring coil inserted over the shock body.

Yes, I would totally think that threaded collar spring perches and 2.5" springs shoudl be legal based on that rule. The spring is the same -type- as stock (coil), the location hasn't changed, and the pickup points are roughly in the same place (the adjustable perch might be the only arguing point).

-Josh2

Thanks, thats totally what i was thinking. Who is the best to go to for coilovers? ground control? and how much welding is going to have to take place? just for planning reasons. i hate to plan on something just dropping in and have to break out the welder not knowing if maybe im the reason it dosent fit.

[jhadler]

Thanks, thats totally what i was thinking. Who is the best to go to for coilovers? ground control? and how much welding is going to have to take place? just for planning reasons. i hate to plan on something just dropping in and have to break out the welder not knowing if maybe im the reason it dosent fit.

You can get the Koni coil overs from most suppliers. Pelican, Elephant and Paragon are three that come to mind right off the bat.

Welding? What welding? These are drop in replacements. And you can't relocate pickup points anyway, so I ask again..."what welding?"...

-Josh2

[mtrotter]

[

Welding? What welding? These are drop in replacements. And you can't relocate pickup points anyway, so I ask again..."what welding?"...

-Josh2
[/quote]


Thanks Josh, I just wanted to make sure with the welding thing. I didnt mean to show my ignorance. Can I ask what torsion bars you run in your car?

[jhadler]

Thanks Josh, I just wanted to make sure with the welding thing. I didnt mean to show my ignorance. Can I ask what torsion bars you run in your car?

I currently run 21 mm torsion bars with a 22 mm sway bar and 200 lb rear coils. Your driving style may want something different. And if it's a dedicated track car, you may want to go stiffer all around. But start out with something slightly softer, so you can figure out what you want out of the car, and tune it from there.

Didn't mean to sound rude... I forgot to add a smiley... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

"what welding?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) How's that?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

-Josh2

[brant]

the rules say
" Production Group 1, this classification is intended to include cars raced in the USA up to and including 1972. Cars produced after 1973 bur of the same model and specification as pre 1973 model are also eligible"
I hope they let my 73 run.
Morgan
----------------------

Morgan,
you had better double check with a scrut from VARA before you go deep into the project. I run a vintage car in RMVR (also a VMC affiliate)

I know out here the interpretation of the 1972 rule is very strict.
In fact, rmvr won't allow the 1973's in.
but other sister affiliates (CVAR) interpreut it closer to VARA and do allow the 1973 in.

another twist:
they didn't make a 2.0/4 in 1972 (only a 2.0/6)
so out here you must run a 1.7 if you stick with 4cylinders.

you had better look into this.
you may end up in exhibition.
everyone's vintage rules have different exceptions, and its best to get approval in writting!

I by the way run a 2.0/6 with 22mm front bars and 250 rear springs.
brant

[mtrotter]

Trust me, im looking really close into this, Im actually waiting for a call back from the group 1 class rep before I make any changes to the car. I want to compete, not exibit. I have 2 1700cc motors, so if 1.7 is the rule, im good. But a 2.0/4 would be fun.

Thanks for all the help guys. Ill be in and out of here often.

[kart54]

I wanted to run my car in VARA and POC events but ended up going to SCCA because that required the least amount of changes to the vehicle. My car in the picture has been a dedicated race car since new. At one time (Mid 70's) it was a yellow/green color and was sponsored by Tecate beer and run in mexico by a loosely affiliated Porsche factory team that included an indy car driver as its driver. After that it ran in SCCA and NASA in the 80's and 90's.
Because it is a fuel injected 1.7 from the factory it is not VARA eligible according to them. VARA's rules are specifically tailored (accroding to them) to keep out fuel injected cars and again, according to them, the majority of fuel injected cars began showing up in 1973. So, displacement aside, if you are fuel injected they likely will not approve your car. If there is a carb version of a particular engine then they might allow the car so long as it specs exactly as the 72 model but even that is not guaranteed.
You wont believe, if you really get into it, the conflicts in the rules and the lack of clarification on the internet. Many people here will tell you their interpretation of the rules which likely will not be the same as your sanctioning body. The best thing you can do is speak directly to the people you intend to run with and pore over their rules with a fine tooth comb. As long as your not winning your fine but if that changes you can expect to be protested on a regular basis.
I was told repeatedly by various people on this forum and the SCCA production car forum why my car would not be allowed in G production. when I went to the track with the car I was welcomed with open arms by Cal Club and told by the scrutineers that my car conformed to the SCCA rules. Best advice I was given was "Just go race it" I pass that along to you.
You can go to SCCA in either G, E, or F prod, a GT class or an IT class depending on what changes you make to the car and the displacement.
Randy

[mtrotter]

I emailed PHIL MENDELOVITZ, the VARA Group 1 class rep and he seems to be welcoming me with open arms. He mentioned that keeping the car at 1700cc would place me in "G production" and if I went to 2.0/4 I would probablly be placed in "D" production.
With the modifications I mentioned to him i.e. torsion bars and rear adjustable coil overs the thinks ill be placed in group "C" with the 911s and 914/6s.
As for the 1972 rule, he said it should not be a problem as long as I stick to 17 og 1.8. Who knows, I guess when I get the car ready ill let you know.
I dont know, seems like they are pretty easy.

[brant]

good deal.
I spent a year of going to events and making sure I came over to the scrut EVERY SINGLE TIME and shook his hand at all of the events as I thanked him again for all of the help..

never hurts to have them know your name and face.

I run C production with 147hp and 1837lbs of 914/6

brant

[john rogers]

I was waiting to see if you got a response from VARA and it looks like you got a good one. In '98 I wanted to race with them with a 1973 914 that had been a PCA and POC race car all it's life but they said no. I had a 2.4L stroker 4 that was fine with both PCA and POC but not VARA. Then the Porsche 2L challange series started up with HSR and HSR-West and they lost a few racers so to get them back now they let most cars in that want to race and will assign you to something like CP-3x or GPx based on engine displacement. This happened with Ron Mistak's #22 Wayne Baker car which was an IMSA car as is the Cerwin-Vega and others and now they let them race. They have a real quandry since more and more cars are getting the "vintage" age, whatever that is and they find as do many other organizations that spectators and other racers alike love to see an IMSA Nissan 300ZX taking on an old (3 years) ALMS spyder as we get in HSR-West.

[Brad Roberts]

Sway-A-Way used to make 26mm torsion bars for me. It is physically the largest you can install in the control arm.

Let me know if I can help. I'm close by. I know the cars forwards and backwards. I can even help you with alignment and cornerweights.




B

[mtrotter]

brad, Will you be at Qualcomm this saturday? if so i would love to talk to you. Ill be autocrossing the 911. let me know, Ill look for you, im inerested in the 26mm torsions, thats the recomendation I got from Mark at black forrest.

Morgan

[Brad Roberts]

I'll be there. I'll probably be in a Black Boxster Spec car (If I get the wheel bearings done tonight)

I'll have a enclosed trailer with me. Easy to spot.


B