Excellence Magazine 914 Valuations ..., prices are rising!! Options

[grantsfo]

Grant, I don't see how that is "fair and balanced". Super deals like your engine don't really come along every day. 911 webers alone are worth $1200 so a whole engine for $2000 is a smoking deal that is not duplicated for than a couple times a year by the lucky few who find them.

The downside of a used engine is TurtleGirl's bad luck. People don't talk about that scenario as much when telling us about their smoking deals on a six.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=61242

And people dont talk much about common failures in big T4 motors much either. I would challenge the assumption that there arent affordable sixes out there. I passed up some very nice $3000 and $4000 motors during my search. I'm curious if Turtlegirls motor will require that $12K rebuild?

[Bleyseng]

We all know about the common failures of old skool t4's, they didn't have nickies or brandnew heads!

I bought a sold a decent 2.4 as I just couldn't pour all that cash into a 130hp six/

Looked at a few, tried to buy a few 3.0's and a 3.2 but shit happens.

I hope turtlegirls six is cheaply fixable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Eddie914 wasn't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/alfred.gif)

[914rat]

Thanks for the R&D you do on the type 4 maybe if a 2270 turn key motor was possible for say $5k for 165hp I'd consider it, the numbers just don't exite me.To spend $10k for a type 4 and another $1k for tangerine headers and still be behind a 3.0 six on the interstate would piss me off.

I don't know who 914rat is or what axe he has to grind with Jake but I fail to understand why the 4 versus 6 bench racing discussion can't be done without personal put downs. After all we are only talking about engines here.

To each his own, pay your money and buy what you want. Feel free to intelligently debate the merits of each motor.

To put some stuff in perspective, call up your mechanic and get a quote for a full rebuild on a stock 90hp type IV. Also get a quote on rebuilding your 3L six at the same time.

Jake's business caters to the high end. It's a unique product and most of us can't afford it. If you want a price comparison, call up Jerry Woods and ask about a high performance build on a 911 engine. I bet his prices make Jake's look inexpensive.

McMark is doing turnkey 2056es with RAT parts for those that want a turn-key solution for around $5K. Jake also sells kits at various price points if you want to do it by yourself cheaper or if you want more power than a 2056.

I've wanted more power for a long time. I've done the math many times. A medium mileage 3L goes for around $4-5K and are hard to find in excellent running condition with no broken head studs. 3.2 have shot up in price. Try and find a nice one for less than $6K. On top of that add $4K for 4 to 6 conversion parts and maybe a hundred hours of conversion time for a first timer. Call a 914 guru and ask how much a turn-key big six conversion will cost. I was quoted $12K for a 3.2 conversion 2 years ago.

When I look at it, sometimes a six makes the most sense and then sometimes a hot type IV makes the most sense. It depends on your price point, how much work and fabrication you are willing to do, how much risk you are willing to take, and what your end goal is.

I personally don't have an ax to grind with Jake anymore than he has an ax to grind with 6 or 8 conversions.He has done a remarkable job with his R&D on type 4 engines .I have owned air cooled cars since the early 70's and 914's since early 90's,I love these cars,I love working on them,polishing them,vacuuming them,cleaning the windows and finally (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) them.In a world where you can buy a HiPo Chevy or Ford crate engine from a quality rebuilder for $4000 turn key with 300-400hp I just couldn't pull the trigger on a Type 4 for $10k plus.Thats not an attack on Jake just my take on why most of us choose other options.I own 6 914's ,a restored 74 2.0 (2056) Low rust Calif. car that is my driver.A 71 that has been cosmetically restored and has 911 5lug conversion waiting for a drivetrain.A running 73 2.0 rusty in need of restoration,a 74 2.0 project with steel gt fenders,a running 73 1.7 project,and a 74 parts car that is just a shell.In my humble opinion the 914 deserves more than a type 4 can give for the $ spent at this time.Nothing personal. As far as I'm concerned there are no bad options, if Jake only wants to build 10 motors a year most of us would have to stand in line to plunk down the $10 k anyway.I'm leaning towards a V8 in my 71 not necessarily because it's cheaper ,but because it's twice the power for half the money.As far as resale who cares I'm building it to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) .When its done I have 3 more to tinker with.As for the the put downs read Jakes first post on this thread,he asked for it and I think he revels in it,I also think he has the balls to back it up,and the shoulders to carry it.See ya in the rearview.LaDon.

[thomasotten]

As far as value goes, it all depends on the quality of the final product. If you have a big four that you and a "VW guy" slapped together based on guesswork, and what "he knows" and it runs so-so, but overheats, etc., then it will show in the other areas where corners were cut with the car. One thing Jake has going for him is reputation, and that translates to value - a 914 with one of Jake's engines is automatically worth more money. I saw one for sale somoewhere here in Texas with a 2056 and I was considering buying it just for the engine. Luckily, I got in on the 20% off special on a 2056 engine kit, so I will be going that route. So, I don't think that it is fair to say that cost wise it doesn't make sense to build a big 4. It made the most sense for me. I was really considering a six, but it was just something that would delay my project several years. Find a six, hope it runs good, buy conversion parts, get it running, figure out all the plumbing, brace for a possible rebuild. It is a lot of work to go through when you could be driving.

Oh, and one last thing. Listening to Jake, and talking to him on the phone, and reading his website and posts, one thing that has made this purchase easier for me is trust. I can say with a lot of confidence that I trust I am going to get the best engine for my money, and that I am not getting crappy parts. I sent my money away and haven't worried about it at all, because I know I am not going to get screwed, and I trust that the engine kit will be quality, and has his R&D to back it up.

[Jake Raby]

I sent my money away and haven't worried about it at all, because I know I am not going to get screwed, and I trust that the engine kit will be quality, and has his R&D to back it up.

Thats what I shoot for and all that makes me ultimately happy..

I will say that if someone doesn't trust me- i refuse to sell them a complete engine..

BTW- Two weeks ago one of my engines was on the Samba that I built in 2001. The customer was selling it because he pulled it from his VW Thing to install the original engine back into, to sell for more money. When the car sold, he then posted the engine on the samba..

He paid me about 6K for the engine in 2001, he sold it 5 years later for 5K!

Go buy a car for 6K and see if you can sell it 5 years later for 5K- that shit don't happen!

I have had customers start build projects with me, get half way through and go broke leaving an open tab with me not being too happy about it. In one of these instances the customer sold the engine as soon as I finished it for 1500 bucks MORE than he PAID ME FOR IT!

I have always serialized my engines, non consectutively due to imposters. Its a common occurence for me to get at least one email a month from someone looking at a car with "Jake's engine" and come to find out it does not have a serial number, or it has a fake one that doesn't match the parameters.... People do that to help the value of their cars and do it very dishonestly! (It is a huge compliment to me though!)

[Mark Henry]

My /4 will have it's numbers matching engine sitting on a shelf. I will cut no holes in the car anywhere.

In Canada there is no way in hell you can buy a "good" /6 engine for under 6k...unless it's hot, worn out or a wimpy small /6.

I just built a 2.6 /4 for a 356, first dyno runs we got 150rwhp.

[Mark Henry]

One thing I've always wondered on a CSOB /6 convertion...doesn't the engine balance go out the window? Or does engine balance mean squat on a /6?

How many of you have had an engine balance whan installing the new fly and PP?
Or do you just shrug and cross every finger and toe you can?

[Steve Thacker]

Damn this is a touchy subject for some people. I sit here and think who the hell just pissed on the electric fence? Or has their tampon in crooked? gezzz

Look....old car and a bunch of us dumbasses who throw our money into something that doesn't pay a tinkers damn in resale. Whoopie shit! Welcome to the ownership of classic cars, don't matter which one, just pick something. Throw what you wish in the sucker and get it down the road. When something breaks "and it will" its back up on those purdy jackstands. Oh well such is life.

I really appreciate the hard work anyone throws into something. Jake and others like him here on the site are the ones who reach for the stars. I think it is shameful to put these people down...period. Cheap ass sumbitches like me appreciate the hell out of these stars, but I do admit trying to get a dime out of us is like trying to get blood from a turnip. I kind of think of us as the Rambler owners of classic Porsche cars, OK so we aren't that cheap but damn near.

God knows I already spent too much bastardizing my car already and when the motor goes, then I'll be looking for anything I can shoehorn in, just so I can drive it. And yes the John Deere tractor out in the backyard is fair game! Why?! Because my ole lady is not about to let another silver dime slip out between her fingers for this old car.

And I quote the ole lady and gump who said..."and thats all I got to say about that".....

[anthony]

Look....old car and a bunch of us dumbasses who throw our money into something that doesn't pay a tinkers damn in resale. Whoopie shit! Welcome to the ownership of classic cars, don't matter which one, just pick something. Throw what you wish in the sucker and get it down the road. When something breaks "and it will" its back up on those purdy jackstands. Oh well such is life.

Well said Steve!

I find it interesting that people get so tweeked by the thought of spending $5 or $10K on an engine. Maybe it's because of the entry level price of the 914 chassis?

Most people go and buy a new car every 4 or 5 years and lose more than that in depreciation. I've met tons of guys with six conversions that have $25-35K into their car. Why are they any more correct that the guy that buys a custom engine from Jake for $15K? I know guys that have $$$$ into a track car and spend $1K for a weekend of racing several times a year. Nobody tells them they are fools for pissing their money away. In the end it's just money and you can't take it with you. Spend it how you like.

[Mark Henry]

Well said guys.

Reminds me of how I got my teen in the first place. I was going to put $5k into a Gene Berg 5-speed tranny for my bug and along came my teen. Needless to say I don't have a 5-speed in the bug, but I got a whole car and guess what...it has a 5-speed.

Anything that approaches $10-20K I better get a whole car or the wife would shoot me.

[drewvw]

well said.....now you have me thinking about a 914 /John Deere in all green and yellow. lol

Deersche

[WRX914]

I think the "Peel" sold for around $20k and it is a V8...

Blow up a Subie and spend $1500.00 and swap the entire engine. Not just the short-block, but the whole damn thing! That is the best part of the Subies... The engines if harmed are virtually disposable. I don't know about the rest of you, but there is something nice about being able to flog the shit out of your engine without the worries of costly repair bills.

Subies rule!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

btw: Good to hear your dad is getting better...

[Jake Raby]

I did a Suby swap into a VW Bug in 1994...

I have contemplated several different ways to expand business, more six work, more 356 work, higher volume TIV work and even Suby work.... I just can't do the suby thing, if I did the entire world would probably come to an end.. :-)

I have built the engines and know I could make them do insane things. They just don't have the aircooled character, though..

[WRX914]

I did a Suby swap into a VW Bug in 1994...

I have contemplated several different ways to expand business, more six work, more 356 work, higher volume TIV work and even Suby work.... I just can't do the suby thing, if I did the entire world would probably come to an end.. :-)

I have built the engines and know I could make them do insane things. They just don't have the aircooled character, though..

Right on Jake!

perfect candor... much respect...

[grantsfo]

Look....old car and a bunch of us dumbasses who throw our money into something that doesn't pay a tinkers damn in resale. Whoopie shit! Welcome to the ownership of classic cars, don't matter which one, just pick something. Throw what you wish in the sucker and get it down the road. When something breaks "and it will" its back up on those purdy jackstands. Oh well such is life.

I've met tons of guys with six conversions that have $25-35K into their car. Why are they any more correct that the guy that buys a custom engine from Jake for $15K? I know guys that have $$$$ into a track car and spend $1K for a weekend of racing several times a year. Nobody tells them they are fools for pissing their money away. In the end it's just money and you can't take it with you. Spend it how you like.

But how about us guys who have those under $6,000 six conversions? There are more than just a few of us who have gone this route successfully and I did mine paying a mechanic to do the conversion.

I dont think people are fools for doing a T4. I'm likely to do a T4 car in the future! My biggest gripe is with this Raby guy and his quasi religious herd of sheep putting out disparging and untruthful information related to six conversions. I dont go around saying a Raby T4 will ruin your car. This Raby character has no problem going on his radio show and public forums telling people in the market for 914's that conversions ruin the car. Maybe if he spent more time just focusing on making his products better and less focused on bashing his competition there would be less emotion around this subject. But I dont think that fits Jakes business model.

[DNHunt]

Grant, who the hell kicked your cat. I really resent your statement about "a quasi religious heard of sheep" In fact, I'm glad we're 1200 miles apart. Sheep I'm not. I spent a lot of time deciding what to do with my car and I didn't blindly follow Jake like he's the Pied Piper. You have a beef with Jake fine, deal with him about it but, don't start insulting the rest of us cause you can't accept there's more than one way to enjoy these little cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/KMA.gif)

Dave

[Jake Raby]

Maybe if he spent more time just focusing on making his products better and less focused on bashing his competition there would be less emotion around this subject.

Oh man, what fun would that be??

But I dont think that fits Jakes business model.

Hell, I don't even have a business model. I dream up shit, make it work and sell it... I don't put much time at all into business planning and haven't had to and hope I never do...

As long as the bottom line puts food on the table and allows me to play with toys all day long I could care less! The "red Line" concerns me much more than the bottom line!

[G e o r g e]

But how about us guys who have those under $6,000 six conversions?

This Raby character has no problem going on his radio show and public forums telling people in the market for 914's that conversions ruin the car.

Grant,

i'm glad you were able to get your six conversion for under 6000k,

and i'm sure it is possible to do, but if your 1.8 would have grenaded on you 2 years ago you would have paid alot more than 6 k to put a six in it and get it back on the road quickly.

you had the luxury of time to find the parts need at your leisure.



but what's with the never ending hostility towards jake, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

if he post some where you are sure to follow, let it go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[anthony]

Grant, how much shop time on top of that $6000 to finish your conversion? We know you got a screaming deal of an engine for $2K and then you needed $4K in conversion parts. How much was the total bill with installation?

My biggest gripe is with this Raby guy and his quasi religious herd of sheep putting out disparging and untruthful information related to six conversions.

I honestly haven't seen that. There aren't even that many guys in the Raby herd around here.

To me, the sad thing is that there isn't any other engine builder out there advancing the type IV cause like Jake is. If they are, they must be keeping it a secret because they don't post here, they don't share information, and they don't market to 914 owners.

If I wanted to buy a 2270 kit, where else could I comparison shop for one? Where could I even buy the parts and know they would fit together?

[Jake Raby]

.

To me, the sad thing is that there isn't any other engine builder out there advancing the type IV cause like Jake is. If they are, they must be keeping it a secret because they don't post here, they don't share information, and they don't market to 914 owners.

If I wanted to buy a 2270 kit, where else could I comparison shop for one? Where could I even buy the parts and know they would fit together?

There are two other builders that work with these engines quite a bit, one of them is stuck in the 70s and won't change a damn thing about the offerings, the other is more into watercooled cars these days.

The Type 4 was/is uncharted ground and thats the main reason why i started working with them. I find it absolutely no fun at all to have the same products/engines as everyone else.

What a lot of people don't realize is the fact that we are not just making big developments in the TIV world, but developing an engine that used to be thrown away into something thats getting nabbed up by people all over the world. If you compare other more exotic engines to what we are doing you'll see that this kind of development is not going on that much even in other types of engines- at least not at the rate of progression we have.

I'm not slowing down at all... This Bus doesn't wait on the slow kid to make it to the bus stop, we leave his ass!