Let's build a DSP car, Money no object (what would you do)? Options

[Joe Ricard]

So I'm sitting here at work and can't stop thinking about what it would look like to build a no holds barred 10/10ths DSP Solo II car.

If you were to build it how would you do it?
Suspension Koni sports or some UBER expensive Moton or JRZ shocks
16" kodiak or other light ass rims
Coil overs and stiffer front Torsion bars Front sway (big) Chris Foley's delrin suspension bushings.


Engine 2.0L with as much compression as possible SDS or Haltech Individual throttle bodies Lightened flywheel 6 puc clutch balance porting with in the rules.
Tangerine, complete Mallory ignition or compatable with EFI



Interior including seats Got to have a back pad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) But Fiberglass shell seats like a Momo EVO or something. Guess carpet and sound pads on the floors.



Body with or without roll bar????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Engman kit????
Early doors with all tar removed
Early targa top.

Can't figure out bumpers ?????

[Aaron Cox]

Mueller bearings or a 935 heimjjoint front end.... why bushings when you could use bearings?

i dont know the body rules for DSP - but i think the most aero one was the wayne baker kit (can get it from AIR) or the sheridan narrow body.....

[Joe Ricard]

Uh Yea Aaron..... Good point got to know the rules before you build a car.
How about I give you the link. http://scca.com/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf
Mueller bearings NOT
Body kits NOT NOT

[grantsfo]

Why cant you just carpet the firewall rather than using the backpad? I guess worse case senario you could buy some very lightweight foam and fashion a back pad that looks like stock.

Do they allow fiberglass bumpers? If not think lightest bumpers would be early model steel painted

[Joe Ricard]

Bumpers Yea, I am still tearing the rules apart looking for the loop holes. Damn thing is if doesn't say you can. THEN YOU CAN'T
Sometimes the rules are written with "intent" of to favor newer cars.
This leave the 914 and others out hanging in the wind.

and Bump steer spacers are specifically illegal.

[GaroldShaffer]

My DSP car

1970 914 with 2.0L from a 73 with euro P&C still FI. 73 side shift trans, welt bar front sway bar, 21 mm torsion bars, trubo tie rod ends, engman kit, koni adjustable on all 4 corners, no rear bar, 150lb springs on adjustable pearches. Keizer 9lbs rims with Kuhmo's. I have GTS LeMans seats & 5 point harnesses. No back pad, but still have the insulation pad (plan to install it, needed a later style since I added movable passenger seat)

There is more that cane be done, but this is my street car also.

[Joe Ricard]

There was some discussion between Josh and I about the Euro Pistons.
I am not sure but to get the every last Nth out of the motor you have to raise the compression and take advantage of the over bore limit which I don't remember if over size factory pistons are available.
Remember I said money no object.
Also thought about the early 1.7L piston which has a dome vs. dish. What would prevent us from running it? can the wrist pin location be compensated for with regards to 71mm stroke?

Are there any of the stock cams that are hotter with SDS type EFI like 1.7 early or a bus grind????
How creative can we push the motor.

[914forme]

Money no Object, Jake will build you a class legal engine, that will put the power down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) With Overbore etc......

[jdogg]

My interpretation of the rules is that the Engman kit would be illegal (no chassis stiffening) and also the Euro P&Cs would be illegal (no compression increase, and since it is a Euro market item, there is no update/backdate allowed). The backpad issue is another I have had thoughts on. Fortunately for us, we are mostly competing against drivers in newer cars who know jackshit about 914s....If they look inside and it appears neat and orderly, and he engine doesn' t have a lumpity-lump idle from a cam, it all looks good!

[Joe Ricard]

Money no Object, Jake will build you a class legal engine, that will put the power down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) With Overbore etc......

SOOOOO why wouldn't I be able to build a motor????? I built the one I am running now and it seems to be kicking everyone's ass.

I am building the next one right now that will dominate the regional scene.


Lumpity lump..... Hmm I just don't hear a lumity lump when breathing through a set of Webers. .500 lift 300 duration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

The fact that the motor doesn't really come alive till 3500 RPM is about all I can tell is different.

Oh yea everybody knows that a carbed car won't make MORE power using stock cam. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

I guess the challange is you protest and pay to have the motor torn down for a trophy? Better be damn sure you know what your looking for.

[jhadler]

Okay...

Can't do anything inside the motor other than balance, 1mm over, 0.010 off the heads, and port match 1" in. The rest is STOCK. Not PCA rules "stock", but as it would have come off the showroom floor...Blueprinted, but not "built"... If you can't match the spec in the factory manual with what you have in the engine, consider it illegal unless otherwise allowed.

Anything more in the motor and its technically illegal, and cheating if you do it deliberately. And don't always assume that someone has to protest you for something specific to get caught. There are times at Nationals where the top four or five cars have to go through a manditory limited tear down in some fashion, to be inspected by the chief of impound. One year, the top four cars had to pull their intake manifolds to inspect the intake tracts of the heads for illegal porting. Wasn't a single protest, they all had to do it in impound.

And if there's more than one 914 running in the class, a different cam _will_ get someone's attention.

Suspension, plastic/poly bushings, no turbo tie rods (spherical bearings).


So, what would it be?

Powertrain:

Light flywheel (maybe 12 lbs) and light pressure plate. Lighten the clutch, but not a racing puck as you can't modulate those suckers.
Tangerine headers.
ITB intake with programable FI and ignition.
If it's REALLY a 100% DSP car, and there is no other purpose, an electric fan conversion to free up some more power. That would entail a spiffy oil cooler setup with an electric fan as well. Remember, only for autox, I don't think this would work for street/track.
Oh yeah, and a rennshift...

Suspension:

Moton or JRZ's, stiff torsion bars, coil over rears. Nice adjustable front bar. Rear bar if LSD equipped (but not sure if it's a plus or a minus). Delrin bushings. Monoball camber plates.

I think 225/45-15's on 8" or even 9" wheels is going to be better than running 16's (or 17's) with the larger diameter. Becuase you can't change gearing, apart from running different tires, you're stuck. Going to taller tires will kill your acceleration, and possibly present the need for grabbing 1st gear in slow turns. Sure, 245's would be great in the turns, but are they worth the trade off? And can a sub 2000 lb car with 100 rwhp even get enough heat into 245's?

Brakes? Fully rebuilt late model brake system, bias adjuster, carbotech pads, SS line, driver's choice for the master.

Body:

Apart from the obvious early chassis with absolutely ZERO rust....

Early bumpers and doors. Late backpad with really light race bucket seats. No firewall soundproofing (was not present on early 914's). Removed the muffler heat shield. Flares for sure (stick with steel). Harnesses optional (but you gotta run with the roof on if you use a harness)... a nice MOMO steering wheel too...

Relocate the battery to the front trunk.

-Josh2

[jhadler]

Bumpers Yea, I am still tearing the rules apart looking for the loop holes. Damn thing is if doesn't say you can. THEN YOU CAN'T
Sometimes the rules are written with "intent" of to favor newer cars.
This leave the 914 and others out hanging in the wind.

They're not written to favor new cars. They're written to even out the advantages for ALL cars. The SP rules are fundamentally unchanged (as they apply to the 914) from when they were introduced in the early 80's. And the 914 was anything but an "old" car then. The problem is that the rules were written with 80's technology in mind. They never immagined stuff like fully programable DFI engine management systems and VTEC, and electronically controlled boost regulators...

The reason why some seemingly innocuous modications are illegal is that what is minor on one car, could be a competitive advantage on another...

-Josh2

[jhadler]

My interpretation of the rules is that the Engman kit would be illegal (no chassis stiffening) and also the Euro P&Cs would be illegal (no compression increase, and since it is a Euro market item, there is no update/backdate allowed). The backpad issue is another I have had thoughts on. Fortunately for us, we are mostly competing against drivers in newer cars who know jackshit about 914s....If they look inside and it appears neat and orderly, and he engine doesn' t have a lumpity-lump idle from a cam, it all looks good!

Problem is, there are still a lot of people at the National level that _do_ know 914's. They were a dominant car in the Stock category for years. And as a result, they became protest bait. People researched 914's, found the deficiencies, and exploited them in the protest shed. Some were bonafide, most were weenie. But as a result, a lot of people are familiar with the breed.

-Josh2

[Mike T]

Oh, future DSP'ers...

Print out Josh's list.

Tape it to your garage wall and build the car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

Nice work Josh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

Mike T

[jhadler]

I'll edit one thing on my list... Intake.

Not proven yet if ITB or some other kind of plenum is the way to go, I think Jake has some data on that, but not with a stock motor. But if you go the electric fan route, you pretty much gotta dump the stock intake anyway...

No, I haven't gone to an electric fan. I've thought about it, even designed and fab'd all the hardware, but I don't have enough confidence in it yet to trust my motor to it...

-Josh2

[Chris Pincetich]

Triple acid diping the entire tub then repainting one thin coat with one clear coat would eliminate lots of weight and cost losts of $$$. Hmmm, you guys are good. Can't think of much else. Great thread...learned a lot about DSP. PCA is pretty good here in NorCal, I'm not sure if anyone at all is focussed on SCCA in my neighborhood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Joe Ricard]

I don't like the rule of battery tray can be removed if it is bolted. That's stupid. most of ours have rusted away anyways. But the rules as I read them ya got to weld a new one back in. I prefer to keep the PC680 oddessy battery snug on it's side strapped to the engine shelf front passenger corner. Reason is battery cable is heavy. keep it short but keep the battery near the center of the car in the engine compartment so I don't need a box to store it.

So all stock cams are the same?? I doubt it. EFI would allow to tune around it and the ITB's and header. Anyone know of a 95mm Piston? the shape of a early 1.7L (10cc dome) now there is some fuzzy grey area that might even stand up.

I like the Kiezer wheel thing about as light as it gets using magnesium centers.

Electric fans vs. crank shaft driven fan. Perfect. Lots of power there and quicker acceleration. Then you can use the A/C pulley to drive the altenator. Slick slick slick.... altenator would not be spinning very fast either with little pulley.

Clutch is unrestricted so why not a itty-bitty dual plate.

1.7L rockers seem to be a popular thing. Don't exactly know why but I got some in a box and in my current engine.

Come on ya'll think outside the box some more.

[jd74914]

Why even have an alternator? Will the rules allow leaving it out.

[jhadler]

Alternator....

Yeah, the biggest beef I currently have with the rules. You're allowed ANY alternator, but cannot relocate it, nor can you even alter the braket. Strictest interpretation of that rule says that you can't do ANYTHING to the magnesium shroud the alternator is bolted to. I was a little looser in designing my oil cooler mount for the electric fan conversion. Came out nice, but maybe a tad bit grey. The alternator mount itself is unchanged, but the other side of the shroud is cut away...

But... You can still change the pulley to any size, so underdriving the alternator is the best solution. Just run the elctric fans off the battery in full loss mode and recharge the battery after each event.

Update/Backdate of driveline components is as a whole. You can't mix and match. So it's 2.0L pistons, and only 2.0L pistons, if you're running a 2.0L motor. Still, you can have 95 mm pistons made that in all other dimensions are the same as stock 2.0L pistons, and that would be perfectly legal. I've been told that the '73 2.0L cam is the best, but I don't know why or what the diffrerences are.

Clutch, you still are going to need some control over the clutch. There's not a lot of power in the driveline, even full-tilt SP, so why would you need a race clutch. There's so little modulation in those puppies, I think I'd go with some light weight, but otherwise stock clutch.

If I had the money, you bet I'd acid dip the tub and paint it thin. Here's a question for any 914 trivia guru's... Was there a model of 914 that did NOT have undercoating or soundproofing tar on it? If so, let us know, there's weight to loose there! If not, then ya gotta keep it...

-Josh2

[Joe Ricard]

Good question on the under coat thing. I know the 70 did not have sound pad in engine compartment. undercoating is a tough one, don't suppose we have any CCW guys over here. Most of my under coating is either falling off or scraped off or abraided off from race rubber throwing rocks at it.

Chasis stiffening might be my down fall. I had to fix some flexing longs and ended up putting a plate on the outer long from the door all the way to the rear supension console. (worked good BTW).
Funky wording for fender flares too. can't remove the fender but can put on flares. That is protest bait as it is written.

Fan housing ???? I did not read that part as to having to leave the housing. just that the alt must be in the same location. even then it says "may" be in the same location. FAb up a bracket and I think you would be good.

So here is something that I have noticed with most rule sets.
Everybody reads what they want, most statements are interpreted differently.

Is it still cheating if you read and interpret the rule differently. (leave this for a separate thread)

I still don't think we are done with this car, I have 10 more hours here before I go home and think some more.

Modulate the clutch? Hell that what wheel spin is for, I spin the slicks on every good launch. 3000 RPM and let her rip.