A Racing Video, Why there are rules Options

[KenH]

This is for those who:

1. Do not have time to go to Ground School
2. Think the Rules of racing should be ignored
3. Think the are to many rules
4. Think a "steet car" is good enough
5. Wonder why they need to have a few sessions with an instructor
6. Why extra safety equipment is required

The drivers in this video are VERY experienced - what if it had been you???

http://www.porscheracingclub.com/phpBBS2/v...php?p=2193#2193

Ken

[DanT]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[nebreitling]

okay, i'll bite...

to whom is this post directed? everyone that i've met here seems fairly well-preoccupied with their safety. Is this a jab at DE-type events where participants can run their street car on a track?

[Trekkor]

I'm downloading it now...


KT

[DanT]

I think that #s 1,5 and 6 are most appropriate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nebreitling]

well, yeah: shit happens on the track. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) wheel to wheel competition exponentially increases the risk (one concussion and counting!).

I don't know that a ggr-style ground school would really prevent an incident like this (was that the original point? still wondering...), but it probably serves to weed out the non-serious.

[DanT]

None of those things would have really changed the outcome of this.

Ken's point (mine) is there have been some on this board suggesting that ground schools are a waste, and a street car is just fine on the track, not to mention, driver's suits and gloves.

The point is that stuff happens and anyone wanting to go on the track should take every opportunity to get themselves ready.

some on this board have suggested that GGRs requirements of ground schools and safety equipment is too much for a weekend on the track...not to mention they are too good for our licensing procedures....(two events with instruction)

nomex on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[Chris Pincetich]

I think the point of this thread is to remind everyone to wear your HANS device. What the heck is a HANS? I recently had a crash almost exactly like this when my cart broke loose and I spun backwards and was greeted by my buddy, but this was at 10-15 mph at an indoor cart track on a rental. Anyone that thinks driving at race track speeds on a race track, even almost solo, can't end up in a fatal crash is forgetting that driving in general is one of the most dangerous activities we do any day. Seriously, cool vid, I have never seen one with the gauges and shift lights! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[nebreitling]

None of those things would have really changed the outcome of this.

Ken's point (mine) is there have been some on this board suggesting that ground schools are a waste, and a street car is just fine on the track, not to mention, driver's suits and gloves.

The point is that stuff happens and anyone wanting to go on the track should take every opportunity to get themselves ready.

some on this board have suggested that GGRs requirements of ground schools and safety equipment is too much for a weekend on the track...not to mention they are too good for our licensing procedures....(two events with instruction)

nomex on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

oh. well, GGR is not the only group to do things safely -- although they seem one of the most professional, and certainly one of the safer.

Chris: the HANS device is a Head And Neck device designed to restrain the helmet/head, thus preventing basal skull fracture (common in car wrecks -- especially when the driver is well-restrained). The device is mandated in much of professional racing, and becoming very popular in the amateur ranks. It's saved a lot of lives in the past few years.

[Trekkor]

I watched the video.

That was sad to see that happen.

Didn't they say at GGR ground school ( I attended ) aim at the location of the spinning car, when you get there they won't be?

Yes, it happened pretty quick.

On the other hand, I almost got in two wrecks Tuesday morning just going to work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)


KT

[DanT]

Yes, it was sad to see. Jeff (driver of the yellow 934 clone) is a friend of mine.
He began building that car many years ago from an SC to what you see now with a very potent 3.8L motor with all the goodies.
He will rebuild I am almost positive.....it is good that everyone came out ok.
Trek, the way I saw it the car spun to the inside, which is what happens more often than not.
I think the video gives the impression of more spacing than was actually there.

[Trekkor]

car spun to the inside

Exactly... If the driver would have aimed at him when he saw the spin he would be on the left side of the track as the spinning car went away to the right.

When I spun at TH and went off track in the wet out of 10 CCW I was surprised where I ended up.

Up the hill side, on the infield, about 40 feet off the track surface.
I would have expected to have ended up in the dirt in front of the corner worker before 11.


KT

[nebreitling]

i'm with trek on that one. assuming a fair bit of speed, aim for where the spin occurred. of course, easier to say sitting in front of the computer than in the car at 80 mph!

[KenH]

The speeds and car positions for this accident are quite common during a DE event. The spin was at about 60-70 MPH and the contact was at 40-50.

Accidents happen to be sure, but anybody that finds excuses for not going though the proper training and not using the best safety equipment puts them and other drivers that are on the track with them at risk.

If time can not be found to attend 6 hours of ground school how is time found to go racing for a weekend??

Ken

[Trekkor]

I also believe the Ground School is good.

GGR requires it.

The "other" groups do not.


KT

[ConeDodger]

I also believe the Ground School is good.

GGR requires it.

The "other" groups do not.


KT

Not true. The "other groups" just don't require a separate day and trip to the Bay area to do the ground school. Some that have attended have questioned the value (lots of wasted time and bench racing) and if it could not just be done on the track day at the track. As long as the requirement is in place for a separate day in a remote location to many of us, many will choose another path.
To imply that GGR is the only safe group out there is crap.
None of the things mentioned would have changed this incident. What the point of even saying those things I don't get.
I know and trust the people with Trackmasters, I know and trust the people with NASA. I know and trust our track people in SVR. I know nothing of GGR DE except that I have to go to a separate date "Ground School" in Livermore or some other such place. Sorry. Not going to happen. And I am not alone in that sentiment.
When GGR objected to SVR holding track events we offered to have them come up to Sacramento and do their "Ground School" here for our members who wanted to do DE. That was more than a year ago and we have not heard another word. By the way I am pretty sure that boat has sailed so don't offer now.
So to you people who want to imply that some group is unsafe because they don't do it the way you do I say step up to the mike and say it out loud. I can put you in touch directly with Fredrick Rausch or Doug Gale and you can tell them to their face that you don't think they operate safely. If you don't have the stones to say it directly, leave the car on the trailer. You will not be missed. Seems to me the only incidents I have ever heard about are at GGR or PRC events anyway. Guess the people involved must have been bench racing during "Ground School".

Sorry, Rant off. But if you want to throw dirt on some groups reputation at least have the guts to name them instead of saying your safe and implying others aren't. That is crap.

[nebreitling]

... if you want to throw dirt on some groups reputation at least have the guts to name them instead of saying your safe and implying others aren't. That is crap.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) right on.

[drew365]

I don't know anything about GGR's ground school, but I am a firm believer of a structured program, including school and instructors, that doesn't guarantee a student will get a license unless he can show he can drive with his brain as well as his right foot. The POC requires completion of two race clinics that are two days long each, run during a track event, the clinic gets it's own run group and spends the rest of the time in the classroom. I know several hotshoes that came from other clubs and didn't pass their POC clinic and were sent home without a license. They run with other groups and probably badmouth the POC but I feel we have a good program. If you make the effort to complete a good program it's natural to feel a little better qualified than someone that didn't. If we didn't have egos we wouldn't be racing.

[ConeDodger]

I don't know anything about GGR's ground school, but I am a firm believer of a structured program, including school and instructors, that doesn't guarantee a student will get a license unless he can show he can drive with his brain as well as his right foot. The POC requires completion of two race clinics that are two days long each, run during a track event, the clinic gets it's own run group and spends the rest of the time in the classroom. I know several hotshoes that came from other clubs and didn't pass their POC clinic and were sent home without a license. They run with other groups and probably badmouth the POC but I feel we have a good program. If you make the effort to complete a good program it's natural to feel a little better qualified than someone that didn't. If we didn't have egos we wouldn't be racing.

I agree completely. But we are not talking about individuals feeling, acting, or implying superiority here. We are talking about groups or organizations.

At the root of this is the fact that we have a limited resourse, tracks and dates, and many clubs and organizations competing for these resourses.

Some clubs are flourishing others are floundering. All have to compete. Acting or implying that your program is superior or other clubs are unsafe is not competing.

There are many paths to a goal. Find a way to change your programs so they are still safe and people will come.

I am with Nathan on this. When I read the first post I thought WTF is your point? I still don't know. Nothing in your post applys to that video. Is there something you want to say? Out loud and clearly stated?

[Randal]

I also believe the Ground School is good.

GGR requires it.

The "other" groups do not.


KT

Not true. The "other groups" just don't require a separate day and trip to the Bay area to do the ground school. Some that have attended have questioned the value (lots of wasted time and bench racing) and if it could not just be done on the track day at the track. As long as the requirement is in place for a separate day in a remote location to many of us, many will choose another path.
To imply that GGR is the only safe group out there is crap.
None of the things mentioned would have changed this incident. What the point of even saying those things I don't get.
I know and trust the people with Trackmasters, I know and trust the people with NASA. I know and trust our track people in SVR. I know nothing of GGR DE except that I have to go to a separate date "Ground School" in Livermore or some other such place. Sorry. Not going to happen. And I am not alone in that sentiment.
When GGR objected to SVR holding track events we offered to have them come up to Sacramento and do their "Ground School" here for our members who wanted to do DE. That was more than a year ago and we have not heard another word. By the way I am pretty sure that boat has sailed so don't offer now.
So to you people who want to imply that some group is unsafe because they don't do it the way you do I say step up to the mike and say it out loud. I can put you in touch directly with Fredrick Rausch or Doug Gale and you can tell them to their face that you don't think they operate safely. If you don't have the stones to say it directly, leave the car on the trailer. You will not be missed. Seems to me the only incidents I have ever heard about are at GGR or PRC events anyway. Guess the people involved must have been bench racing during "Ground School".

Sorry, Rant off. But if you want to throw dirt on some groups reputation at least have the guts to name them instead of saying your safe and implying others aren't. That is crap.

I must be missing something, but while reading the posts I didn't see anything that implied that "other" groups are unsafe.

Trekkor said:

"I also believe the Ground School is good.

GGR requires it.

The "other" groups do not."

I don't read this as saying all the other groups are unsafe.

Nathan asked a few questions as to whether or not someone was pointing a finger, that weren't answered, but I believe the original intent of this posting was to address comments that were made in another another posting concerning whether or not "ground school" was necessary, given the amount of time it requires.

And time it does take and of course there is always a certain amount of bench racing that goes on in ground school, but for me, having never driven on the track, it was invaluable.

Hank Watts taught the classes I attended and we all learned a great deal, but most importantly we all gained an appreciation and respect for track events. I learned that this is serious stuff not to be taken lightly.

I'm sure, although I don't have direct experience, other groups are also very safety conscience and go through the safety elements/ rules before they let someone on the track.

If they didn't then it’s obvious that the resulting carnage would end events for all of us, but that isn't happening. Sure, there will always be problems, but given the number of laps done each year at DE’s and track days, I’d bet the record is pretty good (statically) as compared to any other “dangerous or risky” sport.