Yeah but, which Subi engine? Options

[daveward]

Let's say one has weighed the pros and cons of engine conversions and has selected Subaru as the engine of choice. Now let's say one (OK, it's me) is not inclined to spend top or even medium dollars for the latest model "High Performance Engine" just to have people drool all over it.

For those who have studied the subject and didn't start with "only the best for me attitude", can you rank the engines, perhaps like this:

Great engine: years available, donor car, other identifiers, etc.

Good:

It'll do 'til you can afford the Great engine:

Avoid:

Thanks for your thoughts. Dave

[fat73]

Let's say one has weighed the pros and cons of engine conversions and has selected Subaru as the engine of choice. Now let's say one (OK, it's me) is not inclined to spend top or even medium dollars for the latest model "High Performance Engine" just to have people drool all over it.

For those who have studied the subject and didn't start with "only the best for me attitude", can you rank the engines, perhaps like this:

Great engine: years available, donor car, other identifiers, etc.

Good:

It'll do 'til you can afford the Great engine:

Avoid:

Thanks for your thoughts. Dave

Dave

For my money, the WRX was the way to go, so I landed on a 2003 WRX engine out of a running rear-end total wreck, shipped from Michigan to Tampa for $2800, which included everything including the entire car harness, all of the intercooler, turbo, exhaust, etc. Everything that was on the engine including the A/C compressor, except for the fuel suppply to the engine (meaning fuel pump, tank, etc) was included. I was able to get a CARFAX report to verify the mileage and to verify that it was infact from a wreck. It has 30k miles. For all practical purposes the only difference for what you will have to do between a turbo'd and normally aspirated motor is exhaust, and intercooler relocation. You can easily use your 901 tranny if it's in good shape right up to 300hp. I built a shifter bar out of my original shifter bar. Not a bid deal, you just have to know how to go about it.

My 914/WRX is scary fast and we haven't really pushed it yet because we're still breaking in the clutch, and the rear camber is out real bad. Actually when we first drove it we thought it was fast only to find out we had a plug wire off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) There are others on the site (Tony) who have gone the 2.5 normally aspirated route, which is a huge improvement over the stock 914 engine. What I love about my setup is that it uses the stock WRX ECU with a custom harness from smallcar performance, and other than the Perrion Fuel rails, modified plumbing for the intercooler, lightened crank pulley, and exhaust which has a very deep sound nearly like a V8 when you rev it (Flowmaster 1 in 2 out), the engine is all stock. The car is a rocket and you can't help but drive around with a big grin on your face because you knowyou can run with and outrun just about anything on the road short of a supercar. Just shifting casually through the gears is a rush because the turbo spools up so fast you literally get a rush of speed in every gear without really trying. I've already scared a Carrera 4S, and a 996 Cabriolet. Both of them pulled up beside me, and you could see them thinking "Another slow 914" and accelerated off only to have a bigh Whoosh of White with blue stripes blow by them. Nope they didn't bother to pursue, except for the Carrera 4S who pulled back up to ask what in the world was I running. When I told him, he said "You've got to be kidding...WOW"

My cooling setup which is all Renegade has yet to run above 190 degrees in heavy traffic, and I live in Tampa where it ain't cool even this time of the year. By the way, I don't own part of Renegade, or owe them anything, other than to say that their kit fits like a glove.

I'd suggest you go down to the Subie dealership and drive a 2.5 RS impreza and then a WRX, and then an STI. Any of those would work. You should be able to tell the difference between those models in terms of the engines pretty easily. Then subtract about 1200 lbs from the experience and imagine what the 914 goes like. I would recommend staying 2003+ in terms of the engine and I recommend buying it as complete as possible. Others will argue that you can save some coin by cheaping it out with after market ECUs and such, but when we finally stopped doing dumb things to our fuel setup, because it was stock, the engine started first time and we haven't been in limp mode once (thanks smallcar). I'm predicting (we'll see with the GTech unit) that my car will accelerate 0-60 right at 5 seconds or less. A stock WRX is about 5.2 from what I remember. I know there's one guy on this site who is running 210hp at the wheels and the engine is stock, but ECU tuned.

Anyway...that's my two cents worth. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the 2003+ Subie 4 cylinders. The purists will moan and complain, but they haven't driven one of these yet. Oh yeah, I no longer have oil leaks in my garage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Ed aka W9R1
(IMG:http://thumb19.webshots.net/t/28/28/0/3/42/2637003420076795939MbQzRQ_th.jpg)

(IMG:http://thumb19.webshots.net/t/28/29/6/64/15/2631664150076795939dngcRb_th.jpg)

[Crazyhippy]

Pretty much word for word re-post...

The 2.5 NA motor in Tony's car is very impressive. It has a real type 4 feeling to it, only MUCH more so. It pulls from now until the limiter.

The Turbo motor's are a bit "peakier" they dont have the bottom end tq, but when they are on the boost... woo hoo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'd love to get ahold of an STI motor, but all the wrx guys want them too, so they are ALOT more $$$ than the wrx 2 liters.

Try to stay newer than 02, and pick your poison from there.

BJH

[mrdezyne]

04' 2.5 RS motor was the pick of the liter for me. I have no experience with turbo setups so I didn't want to add the additional learning curve time of figuring all of that stuff out. I took several rides in a RS at the local SCCA events and was more than impressed how it performed in a 3000 lb car. Then I just had to imagine that same power and torque pushing 1000 lbs less and I was sold.

car-part.com 04' ej25 with 14k miles with ECU and harness cost me $1000 even and I picked it up one state over.

[jsteele22]

There's a nice list of recent (roughly 1990+) engines on nasioc.com. Select Forums -> Subaru Conversions->READ FIRST.

To "paraphrase", :

EJ18: Found in Imprezas from 1993-1997. Rated at 110hp and 120 ft-lbs
EJ22 Phase I: Found in Legacies from 1990-1998 and Imprezas from 1995-1998. Comes rated at 130hp and 137 ft-lbs, 135hp and 140 ft-lbs, or 137hp and 145 ft-lbs.
EJ22 Phase II: Found in Legacies in 1999 and Imprezas from 1999-2001. Rated at 142hp and 149 ft-lbs.
EJ22-T Phase I: Found in Sport Sedan and Touring Wagons (Legacies) from 1990-1994. Turbocharged and non-intercooled. Rated at 160hp and 181 ft-lbs. Closed deck, cast pistons, forged rods, oil squirters: turbo motor. Poor flowing heads.
EJ25 DOHC Phase I: Found in Legacies from 1996-1999, Imprezas in 1998, and Foresters in 1998. Rated at either 155hp and 140 ft-lbs in 1996 or 165hp and 162 ft-lbs in 1997-1999.
EJ25 SOHC Phase II: Found in Legacies from 2000+, Imprezas from 1999+, and Foresters from 1999+. Rated at 165hp and 166 ft-lbs. There was a slight compression ratio change from 1999-2000 where it went from 9.7:1 to 10.0:1.
USDM EJ20: US Domestic Market WRX. Found in 2002+ WRXs. Rated at 227hp and 217 ft-lbs. Turbocharged, intercooled, open deck, and decent heads.
EJ25T DOHC: Available in 2004 in the Forester XT. Rated at 210hp and 235 ft-lbs. Turbocharged, intercooled, VVTi (Variable Valve Timing), and drive by wire.
EJ25T-STi DOHC: Available in 2004 in the WRX STi. Rated at 300hp and 300 ft-lbs. Turbocharged, intercooled, AVCS (Active Valve Control System), drive by wire, intercooler sprayer, and semi-closed design.

There is also a large variety of engines available from the JDM and EDM locales. The EG33 from the SVX and the EZ30 from the new H6 Legacy can also be found, but they are larger and will be more difficult to swap.

Anyway, it sounds like you might not want to spend top dollar, 'cause you said you're "not inclined to spend top dollar". I'm thinking that one engine to consider might be the EJ22 (2.2 liters). I don't know much about phase I vs Phase II, but these are the engines that made the new generation of Subarubi what they are : strong, reliable, powerful. Not a ton of power compared to WRX, STi, etc., but it's a nice bump up in HP for a teener, and these cars are everywhere.

Two things I can say from personal experience : don't buy from a stranger on Ebay unless you really, really check them out. (I got hosed.) And, make sure you buy a known running motor. I bought a "builder", and the cost of parts turned out to make it not worthwhile. For the money I wasted invested in education, I could have had a really sweet engine.

I'd say if you're going the EJ22 route, just look for a complete car (Outback, etc.) that runs, but looks like crap, has a bad tranny, broken windshield, etc.) Figure the engine is good to about 180k miles, and count back from there - you're prolly not gonna put a ton of miles on a teener, so 100-120k is still pretty young. Make sure the head gaskets are good, compression is good, and there's no horrible oil leaks. And park it in a friend's yard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you are inclined to go "cheap", as opposed to getting a fresh, young, tested engine ready to bolt in, don't forget about the money you'll be putting into parts, gaskets, extra tools, etc., and time. If you're itchin' to drive, as opposed to itchin' to get another project started, defintely consider putting up a few more $$ at the start.

[RS22b]

for lil to no money you can have yourself a 2.5 NA motor.

Best years to get from are:
2000-2003

Donor Cars:
2.5RS
Legacy GT (pre-turbo days)
Forester L, S models
Outback 4-cyl models.

Price point:
$250-$750 for complete running motors

Motor description:
EJ25 SOHC MAP based motor
165HP, 166 Ft./lbs.

DO NOT GET DOHC, many issues with over heating and obviously head gasket problems as a result. Also DOHC is run on MAF.

Best places to find:
nasioc.com
rs25.com

I have found that out of all the subie sites these have the best Classified sections and a ton gets posted. I find myself buying something from there at least every other week.

Good luck with your purchase and if i get anymore EJ25's in and you want one i can send it out to you.

_billy

[TonyAKAVW]

It pretty much comes down to 3 choices. EJ22, EJ25, WRX motors. For the EJ25 motors as others have stated, try to stick with a SOHC version. WRX motors will cost you more obviously.

I picked up my EJ25 complete with the whole wiring harness and ECUfrom a 2001 Impreza 2.5 RS for $900. I think thats probably mid-range to cheap for an EJ25 with all the electronics.

I also second going to test drive cars with these engines. Until I had my EJ25 installed I had no idea how it was going to feel. I guess I got lucky because I really like it. Definitely decide though if you like turbo motors or NA motors. They both have very different characteristics, both will make your car a lot faster.

Good luck!

Tony

[daveward]

Yikes!! Great comments...Very Helpful!! Keep Them Coming!!

In the meantime:

1. Is everyone running the engines basically "as received", or has anyone started "tuning" with computer chips or aftermarket hard parts?

2. Buying a "COMPLETE engine" seems to be the goal...when you did, was there any little piece or part that you wish had come with it that didn't??

3. Best years seem to be in the 2000-2003 or '04 range. Is that because the mileages will likely be lower than the '90's engines...or because of engine enhancements starting in 2000? For example, suppose you found a '97 engine with 10,000 miles. Good??

4. Tony...I see you have a Quattro...can you comment on the feel of four-wheel-drive from a handling view? Compared to the 914, what handling tricks can you do with one car you wouldn't dare with the other?

Again, thanks VERY much guys!

Dave

[TonyAKAVW]

1. I'm using the engine totally stock, except that it came with an aftermarket cold air intake.

2. The car my engine came out of was involved in an accident and as such had a damaged timing belt housing and water pump. I replaced the timing belt cover, pump and timing belt which cost something like $300. Only thing I wish it had come with was the rear O2 sensor connector. Somehow that seemed to be missing.

3. Not so much for mileage, but in the case of the EJ25, 200 and later are the SOHC engines. WRX engines weren't available before 2002 here (or 03?)

4. The TT and the 914 are completely different cars. For one thing my 914 is hovering right around 2000 lbs, is 35 years old, etc. The TT is >3300 lbs, turbo, bigger brakes, much more of a cruiser. It handles very nicely but as far as handling tricks... Its my wife's daily driver so I don't throw it around much.

-Tony

[mrdezyne]

1. Is everyone running the engines basically "as received", or has anyone started "tuning" with computer chips or aftermarket hard parts?

3. Best years seem to be in the 2000-2003 or '04 range. Is that because the mileages will likely be lower than the '90's engines...or because of engine enhancements starting in 2000? For example, suppose you found a '97 engine with 10,000 miles. Good??

Again, thanks VERY much guys!

Dave

1. I added a Perrin lightened crank pulley and will probably look into what is available to do with the ECU. You will have to create your own intake and exhaust system so even a "stock" motor will get a bit of boost from these. Subtract parasitic drag from power steering and A/C and you could say that is a weee bit more.

3. What Tony said, stick with the SOHC motors from 2000+

[racerx9146]

This is a little off topic but i just finished putting the EG33 (SVX 6 cylinder) 230 HP, 215 Torque in my DoubleCab Syncro Vanagon. Now its not crazy fast (4000 lbs) but the flexibility of this engine is incredible. I can pull away easily in 3rd and accelerate to 70-mph with no problem. Of course you can do better in the proper gears but i bet this motor would be phenomenal in a 914 and no turbo heat/complexity. Another member is planning on doing this swap. You would have to put the radiator up front.
John

[Mueller]

One important thing you have to ask yourself..."do I want a turbocharged motor or not"???


normally asperated is usually less expensive and easier to implement and maintain....after that, you can narrow down your choices easier

don't base it purely on engine cost, a $1000 turbo motor could end up costing more than a $2000 N/A motor after everything is said and done...

[JPB]

Its all about the coin my friend. It is a good choice to go with a suby conversion just for the dependability. 200 ponies is good for a 914 wheather its from a turbo 4 or a six. If you can take your time, you can put some extra money in the bank and have plenty to go for the best out there. Two weeks ago, a complete WRX 2.5 STI engins was sold for 3K! I wish I would have grabed it but there are more where that came from.

:beer1:No huries, no worries. Gluck,.

[carreraguy]

With Renegade Hybrid's help I have a 30,000 mile 2004 EJ20 WRX turbo in mine; initially had some harness issues but that was all worked out with the help of Renegade and Crawford Performance in Oceanside. The dyno came out at 210rwhp with around 235ftlb of torque at 15lbs of boost. Using a re-conditioned stock 914 side shift tranny with beefed up half shafts with no issues to date; Renegade says the transmission will support up to 300hp. The torque across the band and the sound of those full throttle shifts are hard to believe! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Later,