Recommended 914 Suspension Matrix???, Do "we" have one??? Options

[Mueller]

I'm looking for a table that would have the following proven and or tested setups:

914 Suspension Matrix

Component
	Stock	Street	Auto-X	Race
Torsion Bars (mm)	XXmm	XXmm	XXmm
Rear Springs (lbs)	XXX	XXX	XXX	XXX

Of course, much more info needs to be added with comments and warnings about teeth rattling out or oversteer/understeer

[Qarl]

I think the following additional information would be helpful...

Shocks: Koni and Bilstein specs for each category (stock, street, AX, race). i.e., Koni reds, koni sports, bilstein HD, Bilstein, sport, etc. There should be multiple suggestions under each category

Bushing recommendations (i.e., factory rubber, polyurethane, polygraphite, roller bearing, spherical bearing)

Brake caliper and rotor setup recommendations (i.e., steet = stock brakes, race = Carrera brakes, 930 turbo, etc.)

Wheel/tire combos, flared vs. not flared.

You could really make a neat table/matrix that summarizes a lot of the frequently requested info.

[Mueller]

ditto (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you think a simple table would be fine or maybe write something in VB (only "programming" I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ) so that one can input variables and get suggestions or other info ???

BTW,
glad to hear that Hunter is home (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

I got those seals, thanks, very professional !!!!

[fiid]

we need a brake matrix too.

23mm fronts for a track car I think. That's what I have.

Mueller bearings for everything over 20mm or 140lbs if you're not interested in headaches or spinal compression on the street.

Just my opinions. I have never driven on my new suspension.

Fiid.

[J P Stein]

If you're looking for input, I'd say that your rear spring rates are too low. Anti-roll bars (& sizes of same) need
to be in the mix.

The object (IMO) should geared towards "neutral" handling. I think it's a worthwhile endevor. It'll also give us sumthin' to argue about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I have "tested" a few combos.

[Jeroen]

Maybe you should add a swaybar row to the table
Adding a front swaybar usually needs heavier rear springs

23mm t-bars + 200-250# rear springs for a race setup

cheers,

Jeroen

[brant]

I agree with JP regarding the rear rates... but it depends up high speed versus low speed circuts, versus street....

I used to run 250lbs with my 22 front torsions as an example.

It all comes down to the tire and application, so having a matrix all cars is like trying to guess the perfect set up without a tire guage.

brant

[Mueller]

just to let everyone know......my table is just thown together, do not use the info inside !!!!!!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Fiid, your suspension will be softer (it'll work) with the needle bearings, in some cases you can lower your spring rates (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[J P Stein]

Brant is right bout the tire thingy.
You should assume the same size tires, F & R.....let the HP wonks fend for themselves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Those with 6's have a bit more weight to deal with, but it shouldn't skew things too badly.

A good (neutral) combo for mixed use:
Adjustable 19 mm AR bar
stock front T-bars
140 lb progressive rears

[Qarl]

Mueller... sloppy work as usual. Get with the program.

I surmise that the end result of this table is that needle bearings will be in every cell of this table????

I do see, however, that this table could raise a lot of controversy. Everyone has their own opinion and there ARE many factors to consider.

Perhaps, multilple suggestions or ranges of suggestions for each category may be appropriate.

Explanations, notes, comments, etc. would also be helpful.

For example.. street 914.. rear spring values could be 100# to 140# and maybe explain what would influence one rate vs. the other.

I recall seeing some torsion bar vs. spring tables on a thread 6 months or so ago.

mmmm.... Springs... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif)

[J P Stein]

I do see, however, that this table could raise a lot of controversy. Everyone has their own opinion and there ARE many factors to consider.







mmmm.... Springs... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif)

There's nothing wrong with healthy debate. Problems arise when someone can't keep his (or her) ego in check.....that's never happened here, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Brad Roberts]

This doesnt work. You have to speak to the invidual and determine their demeanor. You can't just slap springs/torsion bars under a car. What works for one person may not work for another. Some people have BALLS and some dont. The ones with BALLS can stand a stiffer ride. The guy with small balls will want a cushy/feel/good ride.

Its also a progression thing. Start with one setup and move to the next as you get faster. I speak to people in depth to understand where they are in their AutoX/Road racing abilities before deciding on a combo for THEM. Not some "generic" this worked for so-and-so so it should work for you.

I honestly think there are too many variables for a table of any sort.


B

[Qarl]

This doesnt work. You have to speak to the invidual and determine their demeanor. You can't just slap springs/torsion bars under a car. What works for one person may not work for another.

Again another reason for suggesting ranges... maybe you could have a "balls" scale... (i.e., Street Springs- 100 lbs gets one nutsack, 140 lbs gets two nutsack, 175 lbs gets three nut sacks... and so forth.. Ha ha!

Or maybe instead of nutsacks you could have a teeth shattering scale. (i.e., Nice teeth, shattered teeth, and bleeding gums!)

Again, as Brad says, it IS variable and a matter of taste, driving style, etc.

I think what Mike would like to get done is to have some sort of "basic starting point table"

Hang on a second.. there is also some useful information in the Smart Racing catalog. Good info here... http://www.smartracingproducts.com/installation.htm

[J P Stein]

I disagree, Brad.
Many folks don't want to race or AX (the fools (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ).

I do agree with the "progression " thingy for those of us with "balls"...or what's left of them after running stiff suspensions.....and getting old (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Gives meaning to the term "numb nuts"....but I digress.

A guy can thrash around trying this or that, but a baseline set up would help many folks.

[mike_the_man]

Wouldn't people with bigger balls want a cushier ride, so they don't bounce around as much? That could hurt!

I think that you would need some way to quantify the result of each setup. Something like this setup allows you to pull this many lateral G's, or this setup is better for autocross, etc. Seems like there would be a whole lot of variables to take in to account, but a general guide could be useful.

[Mueller]

Hang on a second.. there is also some useful information in the Smart Racing catalog. Good info here...

IF you have a 911 !!!!!

Some of it still applies to our 914's, but I'd like a BTDT for our cars, maybe for those that have suspension setups that work for them, we could have a few pages of specs (with all the numbers or only some numbers if it's a secret or gaurded setup)

[Brad Roberts]

I want to help you... but I also want you to work on drawings and not some matrix.

Every person is different. Every track is different. Every tire is different. Some cars have cages..some have nothing. Some people have progressive rate springs, some have regular springs. Some people have rear bars, some people dont. Some people have 6 inch wide rims, some have 5.5, some have 7...8...9...10. Some people run Hoosiers, some people run Kuhmos.

Everything listed above (short list) is a variable that doesnt even include the driver.

I for one dont beleive in the single setup and run it theory. We adjust for every track.


B

[GWN7]

I like the idea of a matrix. It would give persons who have no experence (such as my self) an idea where to start when/if they want to do such upgrades.

It would also show what options are available (different manufactures ect).

[Brad Roberts]

A table showing the options is good. A table telling you want to run is not good.


B

[J P Stein]

Ok, here is my experience.

Stock set-up....wiennie tires at both ends(195 X 60s)
no AR bar. oversteer....in large quanities.....rode gud, tho.

Adjustable front bar (set soft), stock T-Bars, 140 lb rear springs. 205 X 50s both ends, HP infusion (140 hp)....not bad. Good street set-up, decent for AX....but off the pace.

Add 60-80 hp to above.....uncontrollable oversteer, power induced, of course.

Add 205 & 225 Rspec tires....Ah, much better.....mid pack at AX. Stock alignment specs. Neutral handling.

My present set up is a "bleeding gums" jobbie. Not as stiff as it could be, but one of Brads "track vairable" thingys pops up. On the pace, tho.