PCA GGR Point System, Time to start figuring out how to fine tune it Options

[grantsfo]

Hi Grant,

Hope you aren't mad I used your car classification as a "for instance". It was just such an easy one to use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Bill P.

No worries I think its funny. It does make a fairly good point.

[nebreitling]

Larry is willing to concede that changes are needed and inevitable, David on the other hand is of the belief that things are just about perfect....but then again he and the majority of the Adhoc Comm that brought us these rules no longer run with us in TT or AX. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

weird.... not that i have (or ever had) a stake in it, but anyone who thinks the TT rules are fair is smoking some pretty optimistic shit.

[DanT]

Larry is willing to concede that changes are needed and inevitable, David on the other hand is of the belief that things are just about perfect....but then again he and the majority of the Adhoc Comm that brought us these rules no longer run with us in TT or AX. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

weird.... not that i have (or ever had) a stake in it, but anyone who thinks the TT rules are fair is smoking some pretty optimistic shit.

......and there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Thank you Nathan....
it takes some folks looking from the outside to put this all into perspective.

I believe that is part of the reason you saw so very few 914s of any kind or modification compete last season...

[grantsfo]

Larry is willing to concede that changes are needed and inevitable, David on the other hand is of the belief that things are just about perfect....but then again he and the majority of the Adhoc Comm that brought us these rules no longer run with us in TT or AX. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

weird.... not that i have (or ever had) a stake in it, but anyone who thinks the TT rules are fair is smoking some pretty optimistic shit.

......and there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Thank you Nathan....
it takes some folks looking from the outside to put this all into perspective.

I believe that is part of the reason you saw so very few 914s of any kind or modification compete last season...

...really? Do people who drive in GGR TT events really take classing so seriously that they just stay home if they feel its unfair? Wont stop me from driving a few events next year.

[nebreitling]

It would probably be a red herring to say that TT attendance is down because of the rules, but I think some people do take it seriously.

The classing and timing are the only thing that really distinguishes the GGR TT's from the countless other options for track time. Lots of choices out there.

[anthony]

I think what differentiates PCA/GGR is that it seems like a much more friendly and approachable atmosphere. I did SCCA AX once and those guys felt a little too hard core for my tastes.

I'm lobbying for the other 90 to 100 folks that are coming out, or the newbies.

Bill, IMO, the majority of those coming out don't really care about the class or points. Most of the 911 guys I'm friendly with just check Fun for their class and they also aren't interested in TT. They want to do HPDE and they have been flocking to Trackmasters lately. Maybe if GGR needs participants then they should expand HPDE to support TT?

I've never done TT or an HPDE yet but IMO the best way to increase participation at AX would be to make it more fun and accessible. To me that would mean more runs and less standing around and have a less business like atmosphere so that newbies don't feel so intimidated. Maybe they need a buddy system for newbies? I don't have a solution and I know a lot of hard work goes into pulling these events off but I'm just throwing it out there that the majority probably doesn't care about points.

That said, I've noticed that even the regulars don't seem to care so much about the points sytem. What I mean is that they, especially 914 guys, just mod their car in any way that they please and then just land where they land. I don't really see anyone purposely modding their car for a class win. (BTW, I've won my class a couple of times. There is no glory or recognition for winning AX14 or 15. Just my perception.)

Back to mods. Lots of the mod points don't make sense. My 914 is essentially bone stock but I loose like 5 points to a non-stock Bursch exhaust and get bumped up to the next class. There are lots of little things like that that incur points on a 914 - turbo tie-rods, 911 tranny mounts, etc. To me they are stockish replacement parts and should be free upgrades.

I'm building an engine for the 914. A 2056, a 2270, and a 2316 sized engine all seemed to incur the same points penalty. That didn't make sense. Other things like a non-stock fuel injection system get huge points. Go to Megasquirt and you pay a huge price even though it really won't do much for you unless you have a non-stock cam.

Some things like sway bars incur a smallish penalty and things like springs/torsion bars incur a large penalty. Both of course increase spring rate. If I wanted to build a crazy AX car I'd have massive anti-sway bars on my car and stock springs. The thing is, I don't want to mod my car just for AX. First, I want my Porsche to be a nice street sports car and then be classed fairly. For example, on my 911SC the logical upgrade would be 21/27 or 22/28 torsions. Ideal AX suspension, I'm sure, would probably involve huge spring rates many times what those torsions rate.

So for me I wish there were classes that reflected typically modified street cars. I think the SCCA went in that direction with the Street Touring classes. But really in the grand scheme of things I don't care that much and I realize that GGR's direction was to eliminate classes not create more.

I don't have an answer but I think Nathan might be right. The points system might be a red herring for larger issues.

[Randal]

I think what differentiates PCA/GGR is that it seems like a much more friendly and approachable atmosphere. I did SCCA AX once and those guys felt a little too hard core for my tastes.

I'm lobbying for the other 90 to 100 folks that are coming out, or the newbies.

Bill, IMO, the majority of those coming out don't really care about the class or points. Most of the 911 guys I'm friendly with just check Fun for their class and they also aren't interested in TT. They want to do HPDE and they have been flocking to Trackmasters lately. Maybe if GGR needs participants then they should expand HPDE to support TT?

I've never done TT or an HPDE yet but IMO the best way to increase participation at AX would be to make it more fun and accessible. To me that would mean more runs and less standing around and have a less business like atmosphere so that newbies don't feel so intimidated. Maybe they need a buddy system for newbies? I don't have a solution and I know a lot of hard work goes into pulling these events off but I'm just throwing it out there that the majority probably doesn't care about points.

That said, I've noticed that even the regulars don't seem to care so much about the points sytem. What I mean is that they, especially 914 guys, just mod their car in any way that they please and then just land where they land. I don't really see anyone purposely modding their car for a class win. (BTW, I've won my class a couple of times. There is no glory or recognition for winning AX14 or 15. Just my perception.)

Back to mods. Lots of the mod points don't make sense. My 914 is essentially bone stock but I loose like 5 points to a non-stock Bursch exhaust and get bumped up to the next class. There are lots of little things like that that incur points on a 914 - turbo tie-rods, 911 tranny mounts, etc. To me they are stockish replacement parts and should be free upgrades.

I'm building an engine for the 914. A 2056, a 2270, and a 2316 sized engine all seemed to incur the same points penalty. That didn't make sense. Other things like a non-stock fuel injection system get huge points. Go to Megasquirt and you pay a huge price even though it really won't do much for you unless you have a non-stock cam.

Some things like sway bars incur a smallish penalty and things like springs/torsion bars incur a large penalty. Both of course increase spring rate. If I wanted to build a crazy AX car I'd have massive anti-sway bars on my car and stock springs. The thing is, I don't want to mod my car just for AX. First, I want my Porsche to be a nice street sports car and then be classed fairly. For example, on my 911SC the logical upgrade would be 21/27 or 22/28 torsions. Ideal AX suspension, I'm sure, would probably involve huge spring rates many times what those torsions rate.

So for me I wish there were classes that reflected typically modified street cars. I think the SCCA went in that direction with the Street Touring classes. But really in the grand scheme of things I don't care that much and I realize that GGR's direction was to eliminate classes not create more.

I don't have an answer but I think Nathan might be right. The points system might be a red herring for larger issues.

Check out the posts on PCA GGR and also here.

What I read, concerning AutoX, is that people are coming out to compete more for some position,like the top 20, than for individual classes.

Two years ago, when my car was running, we never had more than 1 or 2 cars running "fun" runs. Now there are 20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Or people running TT are forgetting about doing the final time test as this doesn't seem important anymore.

I think there is a message here that no one is addressing.

People go to AutoX's or TT because - in the end - they want to compete. Are we enabling or disabling this core issue?

[nine14cats]

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for the comments. I agree with you that a large portion of folks don't worry about the point class. I'm actually one of them. I've built a few cars and then just run them where they fall. I've had a couple zoomy cars and I measure myself against TTOD. The folks that don't care about the classing make it easy for any points tweeking...it doesn't matter! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

For the group of drivers that do care about point classing, since we have a system, why not try and make it accurate? And that's my point to the GGR folks. You put in a system, you might as well make it accurate. And since so much work and pain went into putting it in, it seems logical to keep an eye on it.

So by doing so, you can make both camps happy. The first camp, the ones that don't care about classes, will enjoy themselves. The 2nd camp, the ones that like competing under a set of classes, get classes that are more thought out and fairer. Not totally fair since it will always be a compromise, but as fair as we can make it.

Then comes your point about how to make the AX and TT events more friendly for newcomers. I've always been one to say let's make it as social as possible. I also like competing, mostly against myself, but also with a group of people that are running my speed. The GGR AX's attract a large number of cars, so they have always been more business like to keep the runs going and get eveyone their 8 runs minimum. The adjacent regions tend to attract fields roughly 50% or 60% the size of GGR and are definitely more relaxed in atmosphere. I've made friends in all the regions and I always have a good time (even when my car breaks!... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

GGR will continue to see pressure from the other car clubs. And I don't think that the folks that want a DE only experience such as Trackmasters will ever become Time Trialers with GGR. There are quite a few Time Trialers and this is their only series locally. If GGR wants to attract more people to the TT series to offset cost, they are going to have to appeal to the DE group. I've suggested moving the Timed runs to the end of the 2nd day instead of lunch to allow the DE to be uniterrupted, but this doesn't seem to be a popular option with GGR.

My crysal ball says that GGR will continue with the TT series, which I hope they do since I really enjoy it, and the DE crowd will continue to patron other clubs. And I think that's okay. I like DE events with other clubs too. Time Trials is just another form of the DE experience I happen to like. GGR does get excellent 2 day rates at the tracks they book, so it will be interesting to see how much the fees go up if attendance continues to be down next year.

Thanks,

Bill P.

[Trekkor]

Yes, I'll be happy running for top 5.

Depends on who shows, of course, but top a 10 out of 100+ cars should be an attainable goal for me.


KT

[DanT]

If participation does not pick up you can expect to see fees like the last TT Bill.

Probably around $275-300/ weekend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) if participation continues to hover around 80 drivers.

by increasing our participation by 20 drivers we would drop the cost to ~200-225/weekend.

Also if participation does not increase you can expect to see more joint ventures like TT #5 with PRC....

Or maybe they might try just doing a couple of events as DEs only...just to see if it makes a difference....try administering it along the lines of a CDS event where the ground school/classroom for rookies is at the track...

With hot lap timers....timed runs are really just for bragging rights and a shot at a $10 trophy at the end of the season.

[Trekkor]

I would love to get a shot at open track for two laps back-to-back.

At Sears last weekend, I don't think I had a lap with out some sort of hold up.

I'll do my best to support GGR as my schedule allows next season, regardless of classes.


KT

[nine14cats]

If participation does not pick up you can expect to see fees like the last TT Bill.

Probably around $275-300/ weekend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) if participation continues to hover around 80 drivers.

by increasing our participation by 20 drivers we would drop the cost to ~200-225/weekend.

Also if participation does not increase you can expect to see more joint ventures like TT #5 with PRC....

Or maybe they might try just doing a couple of events as DEs only...just to see if it makes a difference....try administering it along the lines of a CDS event where the ground school/classroom for rookies is at the track...

With hot lap timers....timed runs are really just for bragging rights and a shot at a $10 trophy at the end of the season.

Yeah...but the focus and concentration leading up and during the timed runs is neat. And having the whole track to yourself is really alot of fun.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif)

I don't see the DE crowd and the GGR TT folks finding common ground next year. I've seen the DE crowd's comments on the bird board and it's pretty anti GGR. Most of them haven't run with us in that format, but the ground school, safety requirements, etc. is a barrier for these folks. And I don't see GGR changing directions so these folks won't be participating. But we did get quite a few newbies this year in the DE's and going for TT licenses. If we get an equal amount of newer drivers, it may be okay numbers wise.

Time will tell.

Bill P.

[anthony]

People go to AutoX's or TT because - in the end - they want to compete. Are we enabling or disabling this core issue?

Do people really go to AX to compete? Of course a few do but I think the majority go to drive their Porsche at the limits in a safe environment, and hang out with other car buddies.

I admit that it would be really fun if there were at least 10 stockish 914s showing up to every event. I'd be encouraged to bring my 914 instead of my SC and go head to head with fellow 914club members. It is kind of fun to be able to benchmark yourself against others in the same car.

Maybe the question here should be, 'Why with 5000 members and probably the largest concentration of 914s in the SF Bay Area, does the Club have such a small representation at GGR events?' I know at WCC #1 we had 30+ people in 914s having a great time autocrossing. So what happened to all those 914s? Is the GGR format not compelling enough? Why?

[anthony]

For the group of drivers that do care about point classing, since we have a system, why not try and make it accurate? And that's my point to the GGR folks. You put in a system, you might as well make it accurate. And since so much work and pain went into putting it in, it seems logical to keep an eye on it.

So by doing so, you can make both camps happy. The first camp, the ones that don't care about classes, will enjoy themselves. The 2nd camp, the ones that like competing under a set of classes, get classes that are more thought out and fairer. Not totally fair since it will always be a compromise, but as fair as we can make it.

I agree about making it as fair as possible. What I don't get is why GGR or any region has to make up the rules as they go along. Is there no other region with an equitable points system that works well and that GGR could just copy. (And I still don't get why parade rules are different. -referring to the topic Brad started recently)

Maybe one solution would be sub classes. Like a boxster class and a 914 class. Last years 914 Cup that Nathan started could be a model for generating more interest amoung sub groups and promoting the GGR events.

[nine14cats]

If they are anything like my 914, they're probably on jackstands.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Bill P.

[anthony]

Why isn't the point system working right now?

Is there another page that lists the mod points so one could manually calculate points for hypothetical upgrades?

[race914]

Here is the GGR Rule Book section on car classes

Why isn't the point system working right now?

Is there another page that lists the mod points so one could manually calculate points for hypothetical upgrades?

[ConeDodger]

Why isn't the point system working right now?

For starters, the base points are a little wacked. My 911 Carrera has more base points in AX than my 914-4 and yet my Carrera couldn't possibly be competitive with my 914 on an autocross course base for base.

Would I still autocross if I really had a problem with the GGR rules? Yes. Does that make it ok to leave it as is and not make fair and equitable changes? No.

[anthony]

For starters, the base points are a little wacked. My 911 Carrera has more base points in AX than my 914-4 and yet my Carrera couldn't possibly be competitive with my 914 on an autocross course base for base.

Actually that is not true. Your Carrera should be quite capable. There are many AX courses where you should be able to crush stockish 914s all day long. I've done it many times when driving my SC. If there sections on the course where you can use the horsepower, then stock 914-4s don't stand a chance.

[ConeDodger]

For starters, the base points are a little wacked. My 911 Carrera has more base points in AX than my 914-4 and yet my Carrera couldn't possibly be competitive with my 914 on an autocross course base for base.

Actually that is not true. Your Carrera should be quite capable. There are many AX courses where you should be able to crush stockish 914s all day long. I've done it many times when driving my SC. If there sections on the course where you can use the horsepower, then stock 914-4s don't stand a chance.

Ahhh... you bring up a good point. I have been autocrossing for 25 years and rarely see a course that a 911 would have a horsepower advantage over a 914's handling advantage. When I lived in Minnesota there was one event a year called COMMANGSAC that would give the 911 leg room, however there were 25 events a year that did not, here only the Bay Area has that kind of room. I went to one event this year at Charles Shultz in RR and we were told that it was a "911 course" which was strange because only one 911 was in the top 10 and it was 10th. Trekkor and Grant were in the top ten while TTOD was a 912 driven by Tristan Bayless...

These rules were made by Bay Area people who culturally DO see courses where a 911 would have an advantage over a 914. Which brings up the question of relevence outside the Bay Area.

To be fair, our last course at Stockton did have a couple of straights that were long enough to give the 911 some leg room but this is rare. Something to think about...