Elgin Cams, for a 2.0L 4 cylinder Options

[DanT]

anyone built a 2.0L with D-jet using one of these cams?

Like the results?

Hated it?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Scott-thundercat]

Wonder if the constant attacks on anything "nonRaby" ever cease? confused24.gif Admins now that we have paid banner ads from 914club sponsors can we have a rule where suppliers cant bash other suppliers? It just seems very unprofessional to me. All us customers are more than capable of bashing poor quality providers.

+1. from all i've heard Raby's cams kick ass, but i think someone was just asking about using an Elgin cam... to me it seems like you could lose potential customers by so agressively defending your product (which by all reports IS excellent)... i think it's one thing if you post a dyno sheet of X engine with Raby cam, X engine with Elgin cam- all else equal... then it's fair game... but until then, it just sounds like trying to prove yours is better over the internet... what's that saying about fighting on the net?

my .02

[Trekkor]

There are "other" engine builders and parts suppliers.

Let's say *every* member here said, "build me a motor".
If only 4,000 members did, at what, 20-40 motors built per year, why should people be expected to wait 100 years for a motor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)


I couldn't control myself...

Most people are using a "stock" cam. Why is using *another* suppliers upgrade cam so bad?


KT

[Jake Raby]

There are "other" engine builders and parts suppliers.

Let's say *every* member here said, "build me a motor".
If only 4,000 members did, at what, 20-40 motors built per year, why should people be expected to wait 100 years for a motor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)


I couldn't control myself...

Most people are using a "stock" cam. Why is using *another* suppliers upgrade cam so bad?


KT

Is the old trekkor beginning to emerge from his 3 week nap already??? I hope not, I was hoping he'd stay asleep a while longer..

The stock FI system is very difficult to manipulate with a camshaft change. This is due to the way the stock FI system works and the aspects that are altered when timing events are altered with an upgraded cam.

I had a very difficult time coming up with the 9550 and ended up finding out that it worked so well only after the cam grinder made a mistake on the grind I ordered that I didn't catch at assembly! I had used the base cam for the 9550 with stock FI for a couple of years with OK results, certainly the best results of any cam I had tried with stock FI. I then had an engine that made really good power, idled better and needed less MPS fiddling around with than ever before, but nothing had changed! I tried my best to figure out what was different and when checking the cam "dial in" I found that the exhaust centerline and duration were both altered from the base cam. I then purposely had one of these cams ground and the 9550 was born- its now my best selling cam out of 46 offerings because so many people want to keep the stock FI and get better power, drivability MPG and cooler running. Its very funny what a mistake can create sometimes!

At any rate I did not intend to utilize this post to flaunt the 9550 or any of my cams, but I screwed up and ended up doing that anyway. My intention with the original post was to let people know that choosing a cam for D jet that is optimum is very difficult and the negative impacts of an improper cam have a steep price to pay with tuning, temperature and also the fact that most cams have a tendency to create lean conditions at peak Tq which can cause failures, hot heads and a lot of tail chasing.

Overcoming the issues created by the stock FI and a performance cam were difficult for me dealing with nothing but these engines and trying my best to get more power from stock FI. I knew that I could sell much more engine goodies if I could figure out the stock FI and make it capable of making better, broader, smoother and cooler power.

If it took me that much effort and time to overcome using trial and error methods I have no idea how anyone could do it that did not work with these engines primarily. The recommendations made to me by cam experts from every grinder of type 4 cams were some of the worst things I tried when trying to work through this... Thats when I realized that cam guys need to be told what to do, not used as consultants... If I were still only listening to cam grinder recommendations we would have never crushed the barriers that we have with this engine that works oddly compared to others and conventional thoughts are huge handicaps for most people trying to manipulate the Type 4.

Scott-thundercoat:
My methods of communication are far from perfect and they sometimes piss people off, but thats just me and I have no means of changing, not for anyone, not for any purpose. I'd rather starve or work at a convenience store than to be someone that I'm not. The net is not a place that people can easily express who they really are, so I try to be bold, to the point and effective- thats all that matters and it's only superseded by the actual results of my work.

Most people are using a "stock" cam. Why is using *another* suppliers upgrade cam so bad?

Its not.. As long as that component is effective. Other cams generally are not effective for stock FI- thats the reason the Capn and others refuse tio use anything other than a stock cam with Djet, because their results with others have been less than favorable. They haven't tried the 9550.

I doubt everything sold by anyone that works with any engine other than the Type 4 specifically. Thats because it is odd, hard to understand and not easy to manipulate. 15 years ago I didn't even trust web cam because they sold more than just VW cams! That was several thousand cams ago!

[anthony]

Let's say *every* member here said, "build me a motor".
If only 4,000 members did, at what, 20-40 motors built per year, why should people be expected to wait 100 years for a motor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Mark will build them!

I applaud Jake for his grass roots marketing approach. No other vendor is here in the forums teaching us about their products and giving away tons of accurate free advice, and sharing their research with us. Nobody else, not even the gam grinders stepped up to figure out the cam and lifter problem we had the year before.

I've learned more about type IV internals just listenting to Jake's radio show for the last two months than I have reading rennlist/pelican/914club for the last 5 years.

[Jake Raby]

Nobody else, not even the gam grinders stepped up to figure out the cam and lifter problem we had the year before.

Nope, not a damn one. They all made the test work more difficult to do by not giving us any discounts on products.

It took 18 months and 20K bucks to figure out the issues, 12K of that money came out of my pocket and required this device to be built for accurate testing purposes .

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/Lifter%20Testing/spintron/mid_size/DSCN1292.JPG)

If you think any cam grinder that grinds Type 4 cams has one of these you are sadly mistakened.. This device gave us the capability to run lifters with radically different approaces on lobs specially ground to compliment them. With this device I solved our problems.

[Scott-thundercat]

hey well written above. good points all. i know how it goes about being proud of something you made, so i cant fault you for that. plus, from all of the people recommending yours that speaks for itself i'd say. i can understand where your coming from and as you said better to be yourself.

Scott-thundercoat:
My methods of communication are far from perfect and they sometimes piss people off, but thats just me and I have no means of changing, not for anyone, not for any purpose. I'd rather starve or work at a convenience store than to be someone that I'm not. The net is not a place that people can easily express who they really are, so I try to be bold, to the point and effective- thats all that matters and it's only superseded by the actual results of my work.

[Trekkor]

Is the old trekkor beginning to emerge from his 3 week nap already??? I hope not, I was hoping he'd stay asleep a while longer..

This is really of no interest to me. Just watching.
I just think it's funny that only one company on earth has quality cams for T4's.

And it's not VW/Porsche... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)


KT

[Jake Raby]

Trekkor, your observation is correct. The stock cams wear worse than anything, totally wiped out after 50K generally but they'll keep on living for much, much longer even after being dished..

At this stage of the game what you are saying is true.. in todays world its hard to keep flat tappets alive with the materials and oils on the market. thats why I'm working so heavily on the roller lifter program for my complete engines. The first three engines are already underway and I'll be done with the first round of testing in April!

[SirAndy]

And it's not VW/Porsche...

that shouldn't surprise you. they both gave up on the T4 30 years ago and moved on ...

a lot has happened since ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Andy

[Allan]

a lot has happened since ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Andy

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Like adding a couple more cylinders... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chairfall.gif)

[Trekkor]

I heard today that Rich Bontempi makes 180 hp from his 1.8's with his Elgin cam. I wasn't aware of that...Or that he's been doing that for 20 years...or that he has over 70 1st place wins racing that motor.

I learned a lot today.


KT

[grantsfo]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/scuba.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I heard today that Rich Bontempi makes 180 hp from his 1.8's with his Elgin cam. I wasn't aware of that...Or that he's been doing that for 20 years...or that he has over 70 1st place wins racing that motor.

I learned a lot today.


KT

Racer Chris' FP 1.8 engine I built in 2005 used an Elgin cam and made 186HP.. Its certainly not the optimum cam and I have 11 grinds that'll be going in our FP car, in six different engines at various times over then next couple of seasons..

If you don't make 175 from an FP engine in a 914 that realy isn't any reason to go to the track... It the goal of len and I to tip the scales at 200 from an FP in the next year and it won't be with an Elgin cam.

Yes, Rich has asked me his share of questions, especially when he hit oddities with Pat Pickerells engine that he'd never seen before. I had been boitten by the same issues before... he is definately a competent builder, but the fact is that none of us know all of it and the things we have specialized in teach us their own share of lessons....

[Trekkor]

Good post!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)


KT