So why rebuild an engine to original specs? Options

[anthony]

I'm just curious what people's thoughts are on this.

To be clear I'm not talking about removing d-jet or any original parts. Say you are faced with a rebuild. Why not at least build a 1.7 or 2.0 into a 2056 with 96mm pistons and cylinders, higher performance valve train, and a modern cam like Raby's 9550. Visually the engine will look 100% stock but have 30 more hp and a substantially better torque curve.

Engine internals aren't ever judged in a concourse are they?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-218-1165280832.jpg)

[TJB/914]

Anthony,

Build what you enjoy. I have lots of hidden engine modifications that can't be seen. Judging is visual so don't worry about judging the car. You will enjoy the extra power more than knowing it's factory correct.

Tom

[Pat Garvey]

I'm with Tom. If you can create improved performance, with original visual spec's - go for it. That's assuming you wish to stay visually original.
If you're concours oriented, chances are the judges will never know - it's all internal so long as you keep the factory injection. Unlike other areas of the car, judges cannot see the motor's guts. Just be certain it starts properly & has a factory exhaust too.

[Porsche Rescue]

Can you use stock d-jet with such an engine? I always thought that cam changes required carbs.

[anthony]

You can with a 2056 and a cam designed for djet or ljet (like Raby's 9550 cam). That is pretty much as far as you can practically go though.

[Bleyseng]

Jim, I have been running an engine with internal mods but stock looking externals for years. Djet works fine with several mods, the extra hp is fun!

[SirAndy]

Djet works fine with several mods

it's all in the combo! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

jake's 9550 cam is a big improvement over the stock FI cam and it was developed with the stock FI in mind.

with the right parts, you can get the stock FI up to ~125 HP ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Andy

[Bleyseng]

I might make that number yet if I keep trying long enough..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[JeffBowlsby]

There is a place for mods and improvements and I fully respect and admire all the different approaches we see here. But if I ever need to rebuild my engine for my car, I would keep it to OEM bone stock specs if at all possible. The only time I would change it if stock parts were just simply not available.

Seems like everyone wants something more/different/'better'/faster/custom/special/whatever. Stock is refreshing to me, in part because so few are keeping these cars stock, so while stock was common before, now its very rare to see a stock 914. I like my 914s stock, I like the experience of driving them stock and I know myself well enough that anything differnet than the way the factory built it annoys me.

I know....I know...some people think I am a nutcase, I am a nutcase....but at least I drive and enjoy my 914 everyday...and I am not always trying to improve it....There would be too many decisions to make, and none of them would be....'right'. For me stock=right.

[Pat Garvey]

There is a place for mods and improvements and I fully respect and admire all the different approaches we see here. But if I ever need to rebuild my engine for my car, I would keep it to OEM bone stock specs if at all possible. The only time I would change it if stock parts were just simply not available.

Seems like everyone wants something more/different/'better'/faster/custom/special/whatever. Stock is refreshing to me, in part because so few are keeping these cars stock, so while stock was common before, now its very rare to see a stock 914. I like my 914s stock, I like the experience of driving them stock and I know myself well enough that anything differnet than the way the factory built it annoys me.

I know....I know...some people think I am a nutcase, I am a nutcase....but at least I drive and enjoy my 914 everyday...and I am not always trying to improve it....There would be too many decisions to make, and none of them would be....'right'. For me stock=right.

Jeff,

Are you a "purist" Go ahead, say it .....we're waiting!

Seriously, as many of you know, I am a "cantakerous(sp) PITA". Dr. Evil gave me that moniker, which (according to Webster) means I am either frequently in the company of a tramp (my wife WILL take issue with that!), or it is simply a nickname. I prefer to think of it as the former, and am appreciative of the compliment. I am also, um, somewhat outspoken re: originality. BTW, before I forget, Jeff, you ARE a nutcase. Why I like you.

But......there are guys out there who've found a way to increase HP, with the changes passing concours judging scrutiny.

One of which is Tom Bliznik, who had an excellent article in "Excellence" a few years back about his resto (nice) & engine mod's using no exterior changes.

Tom - if you're there ( I know your holiday schedule) how about a recap of your mods for the masses?

Don't get me wrong Jeff, & i have a bone-stock 1.7 - I like it the way it is. But, wouldn't be opposed to more power if I could hide it.

[Porsche Rescue]

Jeff, while I have had several modified 914's, it is my preference to join you in the asylum. My low-mile, one-family owned before me, '76 is about to be reintroduced to the "styled steel sport wheels" it was born with instead of the dealer installed "mags".

[914werke]

Don't get me wrong Jeff, & i have a bone-stock 1.7 - I like it the way it is. But, wouldn't be opposed to more power if I could hide it.

So Pat why dont you go 1911 then? 96mm jugs, opened up heads, some tweaks to the MPS a cam if you are going to split the case all keeping the stock Djet FI!

This is what I did on the Yella 73 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ('cept for the cam)
Though I didnt care about outside scrutiny so I also swapped to 2.0 heads and 2.0 FI. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[type4org]

Jeff, while I have had several modified 914's, it is my preference to join you in the asylum. My low-mile, one-family owned before me, '76 is about to be reintroduced to the "styled steel sports wheels" it was born with instead of the dealer installed "mags".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Count me into the nutcase brigade (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

One of the first things I did was try to find steelies in appropriate condition to replace the Riviera alloys on my '76. Just be prepared that the car looks like it's running on donuts with the steel wheels (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[TJB/914]

There is a place for mods and improvements and I fully respect and admire all the different approaches we see here. But if I ever need to rebuild my engine for my car, I would keep it to OEM bone stock specs if at all possible. The only time I would change it if stock parts were just simply not available.

Seems like everyone wants something more/different/'better'/faster/custom/special/whatever. Stock is refreshing to me, in part because so few are keeping these cars stock, so while stock was common before, now its very rare to see a stock 914. I like my 914s stock, I like the experience of driving them stock and I know myself well enough that anything differnet than the way the factory built it annoys me.

I know....I know...some people think I am a nutcase, I am a nutcase....but at least I drive and enjoy my 914 everyday...and I am not always trying to improve it....There would be too many decisions to make, and none of them would be....'right'. For me stock=right.

Jeff,

Are you a "purist" Go ahead, say it .....we're waiting!

Seriously, as many of you know, I am a "cantakerous(sp) PITA". Dr. Evil gave me that moniker, which (according to Webster) means I am either frequently in the company of a tramp (my wife WILL take issue with that!), or it is simply a nickname. I prefer to think of it as the former, and am appreciative of the compliment. I am also, um, somewhat outspoken re: originality. BTW, before I forget, Jeff, you ARE a nutcase. Why I like you.

But......there are guys out there who've found a way to increase HP, with the changes passing concours judging scrutiny.

One of which is Tom Bliznik, who had an excellent article in "Excellence" a few years back about his resto (nice) & engine mod's using no exterior changes.

Tom - if you're there ( I know your holiday schedule) how about a recap of your mods for the masses?

Don't get me wrong Jeff, & i have a bone-stock 1.7 - I like it the way it is. But, wouldn't be opposed to more power if I could hide it.

Hi Guys,

Both you guys are correct about your belief's. That's why they make vanilla&chocolate ice cream. I agree with Jeff B there are not many truly stock 914's out there & that's why I love original cars like Steve's in FL.

Interesting Pat mentioned my engine. I just came across my engine specs. Knowing what I know today I would do a few things different. Remember my engine was done in 1994, before Jake Rady & today I would have some of his engine components. I was just looking at his site last night. I hate my
cam choice because of it's difficult idle adjustments. I am happy with the engine preformance, it's just that touchie cam issue. Back to Jake's stuff. If I was doing my engine today I would purchase his new heads and the stock #9550 cam he suggests for our stock/modified F.I. engines. I still may tear down my engine and up-grade.

Anyway here is what's in my engine. Nothing shows on the outside, just inside modifications were made. I think it's about 110-hp???

Toms 2.0 liter modifications (inside only)
First I diss-assembled everything and sent out the engine cases, heads, fan housings, transmission & everything cast alum/mag. for a chemical cleaning & finished to like new factory finish like it came out of the casting mold)
Counterweighted balanced reground crank. Note: I think it added about 5#?
Lightened flywheel Note: I think it was lightened about 6#?
German bearings, Gaskets sets, & every gasket or seal new German
European Piston Set
Windage Tray Seals
911 Adjustable Rocker arm assembly W/adjustable lugs.
Head work on a flow bench for improved flow.
Cam, it was a custom grind came by General Kenitics with Mahle cam followers (lifters).
Complete balance of all moving parts.
Modify cam gear for bolt on, glass bead & repaired a spark plug hole crack.
Port & polish heads with performance 3-cut valve job
Machine & line bore to factory tolerances.
I was able to visit the shop anytime I wanted & watched the progress.
Thats all I can remember except it was done by a local VW highly respected engine builder. It was done in a clean shop with a no rush build time at his home shop.

Do I like my engine, "YES" except for the touchie cam. I wish Raby was around at that time. I may do my engine again soon which means splitting the case to put in another cam & maybe new heads? I am also thinking a new modern F.I. system sometime in the future. I know it's not factory stock, but I want my 914 to be upgraded with the latest modern technology. That's just me.

Tom

[Bleyseng]

Tom, that is about what my engine specs were before. I toasted the rings overreving as a event soo I tore it down and installed new 96mm pistons, refreshed the heads (new hd springs, retainers etc), and 9550 cam and lifters. Really gives the engine a hp boost as the stock cam limits it plus makes it runs hotter.

MS FI is next to see what will happen.

stock is nice on the outside but improvements can be made to modernize a 30yr old engine.

[TJB/914]

Tom, that is about what my engine specs were before. I toasted the rings overreving as a event soo I tore it down and installed new 96mm pistons, refreshed the heads (new hd springs, retainers etc), and 9550 cam and lifters. Really gives the engine a hp boost as the stock cam limits it plus makes it runs hotter.

MS FI is next to see what will happen.

stock is nice on the outside but improvements can be made to modernize a 30yr old engine.

Geoff,

Tell me about the 9550 Raby cam idle??? What I don't like about mine.
It has to idle fast about 1500 rpm's to work in traffic & town driving. Comming off idle at a stop I have to goose the throttle up, slip the clutch a bit to come off smooth. My engine at 2,500 rpm is fast in a second to red line after that. The engine 2,500 rpm to red line is where it's at. Ok for racing, but no good in slow town driving for an ice cream cone with the wife.
Also it's difficult to tune the idle low with my cam. It hunts up & down. I believe it's because the vacuum is to low (at low idle) & effects the MPS till the rpm's are up.

Tom

[anthony]

I knew Jeff would be hard core!

For me the question is mostly theoretical. After keeping my car bone stock since I've had it I've decided to go with a 2270 engine and EFI (Megasquirt or SDS). If I wanted, I could hide the EFI brain, disguise the wiring, and leave in place a non-functioning MPS and a 914 ECU. It will use a stock plenum, air cleaner and all other stock parts except the TPS. To the untrained eye it will look pretty much stock.

[Pat Garvey]

Don't get me wrong Jeff, & i have a bone-stock 1.7 - I like it the way it is. But, wouldn't be opposed to more power if I could hide it.

So Pat why dont you go 1911 then? 96mm jugs, opened up heads, some tweaks to the MPS a cam if you are going to split the case all keeping the stock Djet FI!

This is what I did on the Yella 73 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ('cept for the cam)
Though I didnt care about outside scrutiny so I also swapped to 2.0 heads and 2.0 FI. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Interesting, but scary to me. I've never torn the engine down below removing heads & barrels (don't need to). But, (hate to say this) I think the last time I idn't follow the exact re-torquing sequence for the heads & crushed the block-to-barrel seal on #1 piston. Car runs fine, but now I have a sloppy oil leak from that area.

Regardless, splitting the case escares the crap out of me. Everything I've never done scares the crap out of me, but that's how I've learned so much about 914's. Just don't ask about my shorts! Cool stuff, guys/gals.

[davep]

I pretty much along the same lines, stock appearance, and improved internals (Euro pistons, 9550 cam). Dead giveaway would be the SSI heat exchangers. I think it will also have two or three factory options the factory did not install (intermittent wipe, headlight washers, and the Bilstein shocks). The latter is on the car, but I am not sure if it was factory installed, or done later; I don't recall exactly why I question it, perhaps date codes or labels on the front struts. I won't have original tires either, although I think I have one left that was always a spare.

[Bleyseng]

<!-- quoteo(post=833430:date=Dec 10 2006, 09:06 AM:name=Bleyseng) --><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Dec 10 2006, 09:06 AM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!-- quotec -->
Tom, that is about what my engine specs were before. I toasted the rings overreving as a event soo I tore it down and installed new 96mm pistons, refreshed the heads (new hd springs, retainers etc), and 9550 cam and lifters. Really gives the engine a hp boost as the stock cam limits it plus makes it runs hotter.

MS FI is next to see what will happen.

stock is nice on the outside but improvements can be made to modernize a 30yr old engine.
<!-- QuoteEnd --></div><!-- QuoteEEnd -->


Geoff,

Tell me about the 9550 Raby cam idle??? What I don't like about mine.
It has to idle fast about 1500 rpm's to work in traffic & town driving. Comming off idle at a stop I have to goose the throttle up, slip the clutch a bit to come off smooth. My engine at 2,500 rpm is fast in a second to red line after that. The engine 2,500 rpm to red line is where it's at. Ok for racing, but no good in slow town driving for an ice cream cone with the wife.
Also it's difficult to tune the idle low with my cam. It hunts up & down. I believe it's because the vacuum is to low (at low idle) & effects the MPS till the rpm's are up.

Tom

Tom I just saw this thread with all the crazy events plus I am in Europe. Basically I tuned the MPS to run right with the Djet and the 9550 cam. It took me awhile to figure it out but the Djet will idle good at 1000rpms and your off idle throttle response will be right.