Is it time to buy/build new seats?, New PCA DE seatbelt/restraint system rule???? Options

[914forme]

Nasa HPDe rules and are referenced by TT rules also.

"11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses
The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts
and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other
than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the
expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that
they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder
restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum
requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Note-
passenger equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.
*Aftermarket DOT-certified belt sets, installed to the manufacture’s specifications may be
allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s responsibility.
"

The Director or safety personnel have the right to dissallow a car if it has factory belts in poor working condition. solves that problem right there.

"11.4.12 Seats
All seats must be securely fastened to the structure of the car such that they are strong
enough to withstand a major impact. If replaced, the replacement seat should be
installed according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

If stock seats are to be used with a roll bar/cage, care should be taken to prevent the
seat from submarining under the rollbar. Care should also be taken to prevent the
occupant from hitting his/her head on the roll bar/cage.

Passenger seats must meet the same requirements, per the CCR, as the driver seat, if
used by passengers. Note- The passenger seat does not have to match the driver’s
seat. "

That is easy enough to do with out a ban on the stock seat, and roll bar combination.

For HPDe DE to PCAers this is much more practical than the 5 year rule on harnesses and the seat rule with a roll bar. Section 15.5 follows for your reference since it is refered to above.

"
15.5 Driver restraint system for Compition
(See diagram at end of section)
1. All vehicles must have a five (5), six (6), or seven (7) point seat belt system. Arm
restraints are required in open cars and cars with: Open T-tops, Open Targa
tops, missing moon/sun roofs, or glass moon/sun roofs.
2. A five (5) point system consists of a three (3) inch lap belt, two (2) or three (3)
inch shoulder belts, and a two (2) inch anti-submarine strap.
3. A six (6) point system is recommended for cars where the driver is seated in an
upright (to thirty (30) degrees) or a semi-reclining position. It consists of two (2)
anti-submarine belts in addition to lap and shoulder belts. Note: Current FIA
Approved belt sets with two (2) inch lap belts are acceptable with the six (6) point
system.
4. A seven (7) point system is recommended for seats with more than thirty (30)
degrees of incline. Note: Current FIA Approved belt sets with two (2) inch lap
belts are acceptable with the seven (7) point system.
5. The material of all straps should be Nylon or polyester, and in new or perfect
condition. The buckles should be metal quick release. There should be a
common release for all belts. [Note: Certain Momo brand belts were recalled by
the manufacturer. These are NOT suitable for racing.]
6. The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn
downward from the shoulder point at an angle of no more than twenty (20)
degrees with the horizontal.
7. The seat, seat holes, and attachments to the seat are not permissible “harness
guides” for compliance with the angle requirement. Only specific harness guide
bars, or parts of the chassis or the cage are allowed to be used for this purpose.
The guide bar, if used, should not present a sharp edge to the belt. It should
provide as much area of support as possible to distribute the load.
8. Only separate shoulder straps are permitted. “H” type belts are allowed. “Y”
type belts are not allowed. Each shoulder strap must have an independent
mounting point.
9. All mounting hardware should be SAE grade five (5) or better. Large diameter
mounting washers should be used to spread the load. Bolting through floor
panels etc. is not acceptable without required washers.
10. All belts should meet at least one of the following:
A) SFI Specification 16.1 or 16.5 (for use with HANS only) and shall bear a
dated label of no more than two (2) years old. At least one date label is
required on belt sets.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) A restraint system meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or D-###.T/98,
including amendment 1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a label that
shows an expiration date. The belts cannot be used past December 31st of
the year shown on the label. At least one date label is required on belt sets.
11. All drivers should take care to ensure that their belts are properly worn, adjusted,
and latched. “Cam-lock” type belts can be subject to inadvertent release,
should the driver fail to ensure that they are properly latched.
12. Any driver involved in a high impact crash shall send all of their safety belts back
to the manufacturer for inspection, re-webbing if necessary, and re-certification
before they may be used again in competition. Proof of re-certification is the
driver’s responsibility.
13. All belts should be threaded to the manufacturer’s instructions. An example of
one type of threading instruction set appears at end of this section. "

[jd74914]

15.5 Driver restraint system for Compition

4. A seven (7) point system is recommended for seats with more than thirty (30)
degrees of incline. Note: Current FIA Approved belt sets with two (2) inch lap
belts are acceptable with the seven (7) point system.

What is a 7 point belt? I've never heard of one.


Just a funny side piece, but my friend David's dad (Bernd Walraff) is the managing director of Schroth. We met him while he was on a business trip . . . the stuff they make is really nice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jhadler]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) But I think in a 914 it would be hard, if your seat is right against the point where the belts hookup. In my case the belts wrap around the roll cage and due to seating position my seat the back rests against the bar. I have plans on bolting it to the bar. That bar is below my sholder line that is where the .5" of travel comes into play. They are retained in that position by a fixture, and will not slip down hte bar or move off to the sides. But in a 914 I think the odds are pretty slim unless you have huge distances from the belt back to the anchor points that it should not be and issue if proper setup and procedures have been followed.

If your seat is braced by the crossbar of the rollcage, and can't go back any further, it sounds reasonably good. Add a plate there (to distribute the load over tha back of the seat) and you'd be golden). As for the location of the bar... Proper routing of the shoulder belts would have them at a 15 degree incline down the the shoulders from the bar.

My biggest concerns with this rule are:

Old stock lapbelts being allowed on the track. I have never seen a punched date tag on any of them. And to say they are better than SFI harness is wrong thinking. It is a loop hole that is there to keep stock cars on hte track. Well a lot of them stock vehicles have a higher performance envolope than my little 2.0L 914 does. Only reason they can is becuase it was an "engineered system" from the factory, insurance likes that. Once you have people installing their own safety devices it becomes a liabilty issue.

Bingo! It's a legal issue. Much as we dislike it, it's the nature of the beast these days. No, a 30 year old seat belt is not safer than a properly mounted and utilized harness. But a 30 year old seat belt is legal on public roads, and 5 point harness isn't...

And no sanctioning body having consistant rules of safety devices. So in my senerio PCA would rather see my car out on the track with a 33 year old 3 point seat belt than my 2 year old SFI certified belts. Point being I should be able to goto an SCCA event, a NASA event, and a PCA event and not get hit for various class infraction for safety devices. To me PCA has now ruled a seat is part of the safety system. Other clubs have not.

Part of the problem of running multiple clubs. Not all clubs will have the same rules... I dissagree that seats are not a performance advantage. But I do feel that harnesses should be free. And in the SCCA, they are. But seats are not. Seats can be a weight savings as well as an additional restrian tfor the driver. Ever weight the stock seat from something like a Miata? Compare that to a typical one piece seat. Definite weight savings. And the Miata seats are light by modern standards. The 914 has the lightest seat of nearly any car I've seen. My 1 piece seats weigh the same as the stock seats that came out.

BTW, what do you guys do with all your old harness hardware??????

Send it back to the manufacturer (or other 3rd party) and have them re-webed. A lot cheaper than buying new harnesses every 2-5 years.

-Josh2

[jhadler]

[What is a 7 point belt? I've never heard of one.

7 points...

Shoulders - 2
Lap - 2
Hips - 2
Sub - 1

Seven points. The main idea being that immobilizing the hips in as many dimensions as possible (seperate lap and hip restraints) prevents rotation under impact conditions, and further reduces the possibility of lower back injury.

-Josh2

[914forme]

[What is a 7 point belt? I've never heard of one.

7 points...

Shoulders - 2
Lap - 2
Hips - 2
Sub - 1

Seven points. The main idea being that immobilizing the hips in as many dimensions as possible (seperate lap and hip restraints) prevents rotation under impact conditions, and further reduces the possibility of lower back injury.

-Josh2

Especially good for high rack seats over 20 degrees.

Josh I never thought about sending them back and having them rewebbed except after a crash. Quote my daughter "Well Duh"

[yarin]

I just checked my Corbeau Forza seats, they have the 5th belt slot. All I have to do is install the 2nd seat and I should be legal for DE.