Starter Question, High Torque or regular Options

[pin31]

I think my starter died this weekend. Everything was fine last weekend when I went for a nice drive. Alternator charging good, new battery, no shorts or bad grounds etc..

Turn key and get the solionid click. I have checked the battery (12.35V) cleaned ground connection and terminals, cleaned connections on starter, cleaned connection to transmission ground strap...every thing looks good.

Also I have bypassed the '74 seatbelt relay (a while back) so thats no longer in the starter circuit.

Other than the ignition switch (which I am buying a spare to have on hand) is there anything else I've overlooked??

I'm thinking it's the starter and I'm about to buy one. Do you reccomend the rebuilt Bosch or the new high torque ones (lifetime warrenty)? Is there anything I need to be aware of with the high torque unit (i.e. will it bolt right in etc..)?

Thanks,
Tim

[Ferg]

high torque (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) the sound it makes will scare you the first time!

Ferg

[pin31]

Cool....that alone should be worth the extra cost !! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rocking nana.gif)

[swl]

Have you tried the screwdriver start just to confirm that it is not electrical? If you are unfamiliar try searching starter and screwdriver.

[rick 918-S]

Have you tried the screwdriver start just to confirm that it is not electrical? If you are unfamiliar try searching starter and screwdriver.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) If it turns out to be the starter, contact Oklahoma Foriegn. I purchased a 911 starter for like $ 50.00 or $ 75.00 bucks no core charge.

[pin31]

Thanks, I know the screwdriver trick but was too chicken to do it under the car on jack stands (I'll try that tonight).


Wow, Oklahoma Foriegn $50 - 75 is cheap!!

[swl]

I know what you mean. A less dramatic test is with a volt meter as someone else attempts to crank it. The voltage at the yellow solenoid wire should be only marginally lower than what you read across the battery when trying to crank.

[pin31]

Thanks, good suggestion.....

[yarin]

If you aren't comfortable with the screw driver trick you can also try using jumper cables. Wire the switched +12V terminal to the battery or the thick red wire going to the starter.

I would also try spinning the engine manually. It might be in an unhappy spot.

I just bought the ebay starter. I've heard a lot of great things about it, can't wait to try it out!

[Rand]

No test (ala measuring voltage) is as effective as the direct connection (screwdriver style) test at getting as quickly as possible to the issue, bypassing a multitude of variables.

If you are uncomfortable with it, then use a remote starter switch. (Easy to make / cheap to buy, handy to have around anyway.)

[rjames]

Thanks, I know the screwdriver trick but was too chicken to do it under the car on jack stands (I'll try that tonight).

The first (and only time) I've used this method I was ready for it and it still scared the hell out of me when it turned over. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Rand]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Nothing quite like the first time.

The trick is to make sure the car is secure (tranny in neutral, ebrake on, wheels blocked etc., or in this case on jack stands), rest the shank of the screwdriver in the crotch of the nut and bolt where the main 12v power attaches, plan the stroke forward (like a pool shark lining up a hit on the cue ball (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) and stab the solenoid tab firmly (not hard, just with confidence), expecting a jolt/crank. (Jolt being the surprise factor only... Hold on to the insulated handle and rest assured it's not going to hurt anything or shock you.)

If it does something, your reflex will probably be to yank it back the first time. But that means you struck gold. You will never need to hold it there as if trying to start the car, it's just a jab to see if it tries to crank.

[Zaney]

I am in the same boat with the starter issue.
What year 911 starter will work for a type 4? (Novice question I know.)
Okie starters look good to me!

Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)
Nate

[Tobra]

Something like 73 to 89 for the 911, SR68X, or something like that, thats what I put in mine

[John]

Nobody suggested it yet?

Give it a healthy whack with a soft faced (rubber) mallet or short piece of 2X4. (hit the motor, not the solenoid)

If the starter then functions, you might as well plan on replacing it. Sometimes a stuck bendix will happen on an old occasionally starter. It could also be worn teeth.

Did you hear a clunk and no spinning? Put the car in gear and rock it back and forth. Then try the starter. If it engages normally, you may be looking at worn teeth on the starter or on the flywheel.

A starter is a relatively simple device. (actually two devices).

1. A solenoid. A low current coil that when energized causes the bendix to throw and engage the flywheel teeth.

2. A high torque DC motor. When the Bendix is thrown full extension, the circuit is completed allowing the motor to run. If the Bendix is not fully extended, the motor will not spin. Things preventing the Bendix from fully extending would be obstructions like flywheel teeth, foreign objects in the way, or a sticky Bendix itself.

Good luck to you.

[pin31]

Hi Gang, thanks for all the suggestions.............. I try them (hopefully tonight).

How about the ignition switch? Dr914 states in his 700 Tips book "if the red and green lights (alt and oil pressure light) go out when turning the key to the start position (which mine does) and the car does not start, then the ignition switch is bad".

What do you think? The results of the screwdriver test (if it works) would lead me to think the ignition switch.

Should it be restated: ".......and the car does not start, then the ignition switch is bad and/or the starter is bad"?????

Just another thought ......need to get under the car tonight.

[IronHillRestorations]

If you do in fact need a starter, then I would get a Bosch. There's a reason they last a long time. I have a friend/customer with a bad flywheel as a result of one of the high torque starters not working properly. It was a brand new 914-6 flywheel too.

[pin31]

News Flash:
I tried John's suggestion and it worked "Put the car in gear and rock it back and forth. Then try the starter. If it engages normally, you may be looking at worn teeth on the starter or on the flywheel."

I let the car warm up and then shut it off to try again.....back to the click only.

I have a starter on order (hope its a sticky Bendix or worn starter teeth). I also have an ignition swithch on order (good to have on hand for $7 if need be).

I guess a word of caution on what you read. I tend to interpert things very litererly (I'm an engineer, can't help it...drives wife crazy) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) . For example: Dr914 states in his 700 Tips book "if the red and green lights (alt and oil pressure light) go out when turning the key to the start position (which mine does) and the car does not start, then the ignition switch is bad".

I guess I need to interpert "shall", "will", "is", a little looser as "might", "could", "have been know to" etc.... This might help me from going down a rat hole when troubleshooting a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Thanks for the help,
Tim

[John]

It sounds to me like the teeth on the starter motor are worn.

I think that they should have a sharp leading edge on them to allow them to mesh with the teeth on the flywheel.

If a tooth on the starter hits a tooth on the flywheel, the Bendix can not fully extend and the starter motor won't (isn't supposed to) spin. The sharp edges on the starter teeth get worn when you try to start an already-running car.

I believe that a new/rebuilt starter is in your future. I would replace it with either a 914 unit or a 911 unit (the 911 units are more powerful).

You should be able to pull your starter out pretty quickly. 2 bolts and a couple wires....

When you get the starter off, you can look in the hole and look at the teeth on the flywheel for damage/wear.

Good luck to you.


John

[Rand]

How about the ignition switch? Dr914 states in his 700 Tips book "if the red and green lights (alt and oil pressure light) go out when turning the key to the start position (which mine does) and the car does not start, then the ignition switch is bad".

What do you think? The results of the screwdriver test (if it works) would lead me to think the ignition switch.

My car had a cracked ignition switch. The screwdriver trick worked for me. However, when the failure is at the ignition switch you usually don't get a click sound - it's just dead. If the solenoid clicks when you turn the key, the switch is working.