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> Party at Dave's place 3-24, Barbeque and beer for opinions
effutuo101
post Mar 24 2007, 10:20 PM
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Thank you for the great grub and letting us see your workshop. Good luck on the new build!
Chris
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Bleyseng
post Mar 24 2007, 10:40 PM
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Thanks Dave! great BBQ and beer..I offered my best guess as to what is going on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/alfred.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Chin up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) with a little more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) it will run again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)
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Rand
post Mar 24 2007, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Mar 24 2007, 10:48 AM) *

QUOTE(Rand @ Mar 20 2007, 06:08 PM) *

If any of you north-enders have an extra seat and would be willing to put up with me, I'd love to hitch a ride.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)


Rand I can offer one?


Thanks Rich. Mucho appreciated. I missed out - had a family gig in Monroe.

Good luck Dave. Hoping the next get-together will be to celebrate that beast running in all it's glory!
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914werke
post Mar 25 2007, 02:03 PM
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Ok since I had the camera I was elected to post the findings.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image

prior to tear down plug color was good (not to lean) but leak down #'s were BAD.
Nothing obvious after removal of heads.
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914werke
post Mar 25 2007, 02:08 PM
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Cylnders come off and the cyl walls tell a diff. story
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Time for a tear down ...again!
But aside from the miserable damp weather and unfortunate findings
good company food and a few beers.......
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ConeDodger
post Mar 25 2007, 02:11 PM
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Hard to tell from the picture... Is that a broken ring or did the whole skirt break???
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914werke
post Mar 25 2007, 02:13 PM
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ring land (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
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jwalters
post Mar 25 2007, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Mar 25 2007, 04:11 PM) *

Hard to tell from the picture... Is that a broken ring or did the whole skirt break???



It was the ring lands that broke - ring flutter is highly causitive to this - -are you running a total seal zero-gap second ring??
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rhodyguy
post Mar 25 2007, 02:15 PM
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Chimp Sanctuary NW. Check it out.
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that's the lower ring land for the upper comp ring. the ring was intact. it came off after the ring was removed.

k
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jwalters
post Mar 25 2007, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Mar 25 2007, 04:15 PM) *

that's the lower ring land for the upper comp ring. the ring was intact. it came off after the ring was removed.

k

Top compression will not do that. Top compression flutter with tear off the top of the piston - That is second compression problem - either flutter or the ring land was milled too wide for the ring in the first place.(which caused the flutter)....IMHO of course
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DNHunt
post Mar 25 2007, 04:41 PM
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Further work today. Cylinders 1,3 and 4 all had broken ring lands. All on the bottom of the pistons. They were still altogether and basically fell apart in my hands.

I split the case and looked at the bearings, crank and cam and I think they are alright. I found 1 small metal flake on the bottom of the sump. I had it set up full flow and was using a Mobil 1 filter. I suppose there'll be plenty of metal in there.

At any rate, I'm still pondering what to do.

Dave
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Jake Raby
post Mar 25 2007, 04:44 PM
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Lean, Lean Lean!!!!!!!!! At some point that was the cause of the broken land! It may not be lean right now, but it has been! The color of the valves also suggest this-

The only KB piston I have ever seen do this was detonating like crazy prior to the event, BUT generally detonation causes this on the spark plug side of the piston, not the under side. My guess would be that the top ring became damaged and was allowing some combustion past it, the ring land can't take that very well at all. Yet again Dave breaks something better than anyone else- even us!

FYI- we have now used over 1,000 sets of these pistons (in complete engines and kits) and have never QC'd one piston that had a faulty ring land, out of those 1K sets. I have the sheet where I personally inspected these parts that Dave used just in case his bad luck came back to haunt us all again.

Dave, you know the routine- box it all up and disperse parts to Charles and myself, we'll take care of you again. I can match you up a piston ASAP and Charles can get the plating repaired.

Some people with a nasty sense of humor are getting a real kick out of Dave having all these problems with these cylinders and my parts and it's starting to really piss me off. We have supported Dave throughout this excursion better than most companies would ever dream of- this latest hiccup will easily put LN Engineering and myself over the 5K$ point in component replacement, shipping and the like. Laugh all you want ass holes, we ARE supporting the products that we have offered to Dave and we are doing so without him demanding such replacements- he shouldn't have to!

Dave has been great to deal with on this and while some of you get a kick out of seeing our stuff fail, don't wish the bad luck on a great guy like Dave any longer- spit in our faces personally, don't catch him in the cross fire.

Dave, I want that engine at my shop. (He didn't have to ASK for that either)
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DNHunt
post Mar 25 2007, 05:07 PM
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Jake

You are right about the detonation. I told everyone I had a pretty good ping a hill on the last drive. Also, the land between the top ring and the 2nd ring on #4 looks like it got real hot. I tuned it earlier when I had the oil heading back into the intake. When I replumbed it to a puke bottle it didn't have the oil to burn. Truth is I really don't have a clue when it busted except after that pinging it died the next time I put the clutch in and it never fired again.

I'm going to sleep on it and we can arrange a phone call. I hate giving up about as much as I hate anything but, I'm pretty discouraged. I'll probably crate it up and send it to you. I may hold it until you get the engine for TV done cause I don't want you to catch what I got.
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Jake Raby
post Mar 25 2007, 05:19 PM
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Yeah, let us get the TV show out of the way and then I'll have some of MY personal time at the shop freed up to work on the issues. (plus I don't want any contagious virus around here that might infect an engine thats going to try to be blown up on prime time nationwide TV in front of 5+ million people)

Based on the color of the exhaust valves (as best I can see in the pics) I would say the EGT was getting up at some point, if not most of the time. A quick Len inspection on the heads will verify this as EGT elevations are very apparent. Can you post a pic of each spark plug's porcelin area as close up as possible???

What I want to happen would be getting the parts to Charles so he can get the cylinders repaired and to me so they won't slow us down on this end. I'd want to build and dyno the engine with carbs first and then have you arrive with the MS set up and gear to tune the engine in the new lab. In the lab I can monitor EVERY aspect of the engine and log it for future replays.

Remember:
Even a rich running engine can detonate with too much ignition advance!!! The LE 200 heads are VERY efficient, much more so than the 7440 heads you previously had, due to this one can expect lower than typical ignition advance values.

Patch up your back up engine (I'll help with parts to do this) and run it while we put a rope around this current issue and tie it up like the greased pig it has turned out to be. It won't leave my shop without 20+ hours of run time on it and I might use it for the ignition shootout since it'll be here anyway and could use all the run time we can give it.

It won't kick my ass. But I can't touch it till after we get the TV taping behind us.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Mar 25 2007, 05:20 PM
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DNHunt
post Mar 25 2007, 05:34 PM
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Jake, you are way more than fair. I got enough stuff around to get Old Smokie up and running but thanks for the offer.

Dave
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Joe Ricard
post Mar 25 2007, 05:47 PM
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When I got to the pictures I let out a huge "Oh my God"
Wife came around the corner asking "what what"?

I was really hit in the gut. I feel for you Dave and just don't have words for what you have experienced.

I think I remember you are data logging. Didn't you have any indications that your EFI was going to screw you? AGAIN.

I have just made up my mind for my new "Joe Engine" Long live the CARBURATOR.

I guess because I understand them better
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Aaron Cox
post Mar 25 2007, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE(Joe Ricard @ Mar 25 2007, 04:47 PM) *

When I got to the pictures I let out a huge "Oh my God"
Wife came around the corner asking "what what"?

I was really hit in the gut. I feel for you Dave and just don't have words for what you have experienced.

I think I remember you are data logging. Didn't you have any indications that your EFI was going to screw you? AGAIN.

I have just made up my mind for my new "Joe Engine" Long live the CARBURATOR.

I guess because I understand them better


spell carb right if you want it to live long (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
CARBURETOR
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Bleyseng
post Mar 25 2007, 06:02 PM
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Thats how they spel it in Alabama......just like it sounds
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pete-stevers
post Mar 25 2007, 06:02 PM
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sorry i didn't make it down....
i didn't get done in the store till it was to late....
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DNHunt
post Mar 25 2007, 07:10 PM
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Here's the plug pics Jake.

cyl #1


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