So how much does it really cost to build an engine, Not talking about an already made kit.... Options

[Carlitos Way]

I'm thinking about taking a 2.0 block to about a 2270.

If I'm not mistaken, this can be done with relatively minor changes. Perhaps polish the crank, and do some machine work on the case to accommodate the 103 Ps and Cs. Then, add a cam, and some head work.

Any ideas? I'm trying to budget for a rebuild... and I'm trying to make sure I budget properly.

[McMark]

2270 is 96 pistsons an a 78.4 crank. 2.0 crank is 71. A 103 x 71 motor would be a 2366. Lots to think about for this. Lots of places to go wrong. Heat is going to be your number 1 concern.

[BMXerror]

I'm looking at the same bottom end dimensions for a motor in the future, but I think there will have to be a budget motor in between. Getting the heads to flow on an engine of that size will either be expensive or a lot of work. You'll also probably have to do exhaust and induction, which won't be cheap. It'll run without these things, but it's not going to make any real power if it can't flow the air.
Somethin' to knock around in your head: this is what I'm planning to do. I'll get the CW crank, rods, and maybe even cam that I plan to use on the 2365, and use 96mm pistons with the same pin height as the 103s. Then when I get some more money, I'll build the heads with big valves, redo the intake and exhaust, and slip in the 103s. A little more money that way, but it'll spread the cost over some time and give you a little extra power now.
Mark D.

[Carlitos Way]

first money saving tip: Educate yourself. Yes, I meant 2366. But then the issue becomes... how much head work? I didn't realize I would need different pin heights. The idea of the stock cans/pistons is very interesting... but don't you have to open up the case for 103's?

[BMXerror]

Agreed... educate yourself... also, build yourself. I'm a big believer in DIY. Not only is it cheaper, but much more satisfying. Not enough people do this, and they think that opening their wallet makes them a hotrodder. (Rant over)
I think you do have to open up the case for 103s(not sure), but, if necessary, I would do that on the second go 'roud. I would split the case and check tolerances anyways, so t's not a big deal. You don't NEED different pin heights. You can get 103s for 71mm stroke and stock length rods and you'll be fine. I'm just playing with deck height for a few different reasons, so I want custom pistons.
As far as headwork goes, you're gonna need to get some bigger valves and do some serious porting on both ends to get that thing to flow, otherwise that extra displacement isn't going to do anything. You can cam the crap out of it, but that'll kill your bottom end. Even putting an extreme cam in requires some machining on the heads when you get over about .500 lift, because you run out of room for the valve to travel. My knowledge is rather limited on the subject. Someone more educated should chime in here pretty soon.
Mark D.

[messix]

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[r_towle]

First I would say make a shopping list to see what the real total cost would be, and go ahead and shop around.

I am really cheap, and right now, Jake seems to be the best price for engine parts that are actually available...

Make a full list.

Must have parts
Gasket set
F/R seals
New crank bearings
New rod bearings
New cam bearings

Optional parts
New P/C
New Rods
New rod bolts
new camshaft
new lifters
new push rods
new rocker arms
new Crankshaft
new cam gear
new case bolts
new exhaust bolts
new valves
new valve springs
new valve retainers
new rocker arm bolts

Then look at the machine work
All optional, depending upon how well you want it done in the end..
how much money you have, and your comfort level with the risks.

Head work is one price
Porting heads is another price
Porting them correctly is another price.
New valve seats
Cracked heads cost more to fix
Case will need to be bored out for 103mm P/C
Case will need slight clearancing depending upon the stroke/rod combo
Case will need to be decked
Case will need to be blueprinted (measured)
Case will need Oil system modified for bigger motor.
Case will need oil galley plugs

I am certain I forgot some stuff, but its a good list to start with.

Rimco give basic pricing online, and from what I have heard, you can bring your Case to them and they can handle that fairly well.

I cant remember the machinist who everyone recommends on the west coast, but Len and Hoffman Machine services in Athens Georgia is who Jake uses, and many others love his work.

Rich

[herman maire]

Find a good used 3.0L Six and be done with it.... thats what I doing anyway. My 4 cylinder is driving me nuts, cant wait for my 3.0l (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

It will probably work out to almost the same $$$ anyway.

[41ghost]

save yourself , talk to jake and get it right the first time you will love it. if you want a 2270 or bigger its going to cost no two ways about it. you can get the parts for less but thats not all you need to do, balancing, head work or new heads are a must. thats why well put together kit's are well worth it.

[41ghost]

yes big six's do it also , but at what cost. in fact much more. you can not just put a six in and be done . unless you like killing your car. you will have to add body stiffening to handle the weight and power. you can get plenty of power from a well built t4.

[McMark]

I don't design motor combos because the more I've looked into it, the more it becomes obvious that there are a lot of important factors that need to be taken into account to build a long life, strong running, efficient motor. If you're thinking, "Hey I'll throw some big P&C on my 2.0 bottom end!" Then there's a lot more you're not taking into account. Have you calculated mean piston speed? How about rod angularity? Are your rings/skirts going to be loaded up at a unacceptable angle and wear in 30,000 miles? All of this is stuff you are capable of learning and understanding, but from my perspective, if you're not going to take the time to learn it all, you're building a grenade.

You can definitely throw parts together. And it'll fire up. And you can put it in your car. And you can drive around. And it may pull like a freight train. But you'll definitely see the compromise in tunability and longevity. Worst case scenario, it'll ping itself to death or overheat itself to death and you just wasted all the time and money you put into it. There goes your budget.

I truly and honestly wish it was easier to 'roll your own combo'. I really wish I could say, just build it and have fun. But it's just not true and most likely you'll be wasting money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

It comes down to this cliche, "Do you want an engine, or do you want an experiment?"

[Joe Ricard]

I did a stockish build for a FRIEND. Euro P&c's, 86a cam, rebuilt heads, new clutch, new bearings and seals. total was about 2500. I will not do another one for that cheap.
As much work as I did on that motor my labor came out to less than 1 dollar per hour. I hate cleaning someone elses nasty engine.

[pbanders]

Mark is dead-on. Building engines that work is one thing - building engines that continue to work for a normal lifetime is where the engineering and experience comes in. Add in cost, emissions, heat, efficiency, etc., and the complexity builds. Nothing like DIY for making certain it's been done right, but it probably makes sense if you're going to DIY, that you base your design off a proven solution.

[BMXerror]

I truly and honestly wish it was easier to 'roll your own combo'. I really wish I could say, just build it and have fun. But it's just not true and most likely you'll be wasting money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

And that's exactly the kind of attitude that (IMHO) is ruining hotrodding. All hotrodding ever was was backyard experimentation. Some gearhead wants to make more power out of whatever he has. So he does his homework, figures out what he can accomplish with his budget and skills (and probably some of his buddies' skills too), and sees how it works. My dad tells stories about all the things that were done back in the day by all the guys that he grew up with. These guys weren't NASA engineers. They were regular people, usually with not much money, who weren't afraid to dive in and give it a shot. Did they dive in completely blind? NO. But they didn't have all the fancy crap that we have no-a-days, and their sh*t went pretty damn well. And if it blew up, TOUGH SH*T. When did we become a nation of such pansies, so afraid of any failure? That's how we learn! And BTW, where do you think the fearless leader Jake Raby came from? He's just another guy that started in a garage playin' around because he felt like it. And he didn't go crying his way away from motorsport when he blew his first motor. He learned and moved on.
And what's this about 'waisting money'. All these cars are is a hole to throw money in! It's about the experience. If you just want some budget lab car that goes fast, you can just get a 'Vette. But we're playing with 914s just because they're cool, and with all the resources on the internet now, you can learn SOOOO much before ever turning a wrench. As long as your head's on strait and you're humble enough to ask a lot of questions, you can build a pretty damn good motor your first time out. It may be a couple less HP than a Raby kit, but who cares unless you're racing. There will ALWAYS be something stronger, faster, better, because there will always be Ferrari.
I don't mean to rip on another Mark. I respect your views and all, but I just had to get my small voice out there. I just think that hotrodding used to be about so much more than money and power, and I miss what it used to be. I'm a hopeless idealist, and if you don't mind, I'll just continue to 'waist' my money.
Mark D.

[G e o r g e]

And that's exactly the kind of attitude that (IMHO) is ruining hot rodding.

Mark,

Is hot rodding what Carlos is asking for?Or is he hoping/expecting to have an engine that will last for 80,000-100,000 miles?

[Carlitos Way]

Is hot rodding what Carlos is asking for?Or is he hoping/expecting to have an engine that will last for 80,000-100,000 miles?

George,

Carlos is asking for ideas of how much a rebuild will cost... for a bigger, better, more powerful engine. I'm not looking to auto cross, I'm not looking to race, but it would be nice to get out of a turn and have a little more power to get out of the car if I choose to do a little aggressive canyon cruising... or if I just try to keep up with Howard.

[McMark]

Mark, I agree 100% that there are some people like that. They are the ones who will innovate. And if Carlos wants to be an innovator then he will ignore my advice anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I've also seen too many people give up on projects that lost scope. After awhile you forget what a joy it is to actually DRIVE them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) I can think of one prominent member who is a perfect example of this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mueba.gif)

[pbanders]

I think there's another thing to consider about hot-rodding. If you're doing it with an iron-block 8-cyl, the block is so massively overbuilt it can tolerate a lot of experimentation and abuse. I've seen Detroit iron tolerate stuff that was simply incredible. And because there are billions of them out there, performance parts and core components are fairly cheap.

I don't think our T4's are the same beast. Heat management is a major issue, machining has to be extremely precise, there just isn't as much margin for error. And the cost of components is often outrageous compared to big block iron. I recently had a stock rebuild and I was very pleased with the price - but for the same money, I could have bought an outrageous crate engine. For that cash, most guys are going to go with a proven solution.

I'm glad plenty of people want more, that's what has led to designs that Raby has produced that solve all the problems and still give the performance improvements.

[G e o r g e]

Is hot rodding what Carlos is asking for?Or is he hoping/expecting to have an engine that will last for 80,000-100,000 miles?

George,

Carlos is asking for ideas of how much a rebuild will cost... for a bigger, better, more powerful engine. I'm not looking to auto cross, I'm not looking to race, but it would be nice to get out of a turn and have a little more power to get out of the car if I choose to do a little aggressive canyon cruising... or if I just try to keep up with Howard.

I understand that,

I guess the question is your 914 a "Hotrod" or a Driver?


to answer your question, Jake went over how to do a budget rebuild to 2056.

the only difference in what your asking for is a little more $ for the 103's, machine work to open your case, and perhaps a little more attention payed to your heads.

I would guess that you should be able to put that together for less than 3K

of course this would not include exhaust , fuel delivery and the heat issue that has gone along with the cast big 100+ P and C's

[41ghost]

i also agree with mark, however experimenting is a great deal of fun , it is what it is , and its usually costly. what you want should be more defined. but i think he was asking for a low cost built not to experement . some just do not have the funds to do a build each year.