VW Badge location & body numbers, Challenge to determine beginning & end Options

[davep]

Thanks for the data point. I have a list of 250 cars to query the owners of. However it is slow going, and I have to track each one to know where I am at.
Dave

[wonkipop]

yep, its a slog.


it is an interesting change.
suggests to me that management for the 914 project (porsche at that point?) were looking for flexibility in terms of assigning a build order number to the body shells?

stamping numbers into the shell itself implies to me a number was already assigned in advance of the shell being made to a particular build spec, ie 1.8 or 2.0 with whatever was required of the order, but it was in advance of the build. as if production was behind demand.

but perhaps they went on during 74 to build up an excess of production potential in surplus to demand/sales and needed to hold back until they knew what they were fulfilling as an order or mix of model specs?

[L-Jet914]

I just got around to logging into the website after a while. Saw the notification that @wonkipop mentioned me here. What kind of information did you need?

[MCShack]

Thanks Clay, that does indeed prove the use of the tag early in week 18.

Jon, yes the digits can be very hard to see. They were not done with any great precision, and are never as clear as the VIN in the front fender. Almost any accident in that corner will wrinkle the metal, then a bit of bondo and it is well hidden. Thankfully yours still exists.

I just need Dan to confirm, one way or the other, the presence of the tag in his front trunk. We may also need to find a few cars in week 15 and 17.

Lets not forget, we still have to start to nail down the change from base 9500 to base 9000 in the period of week 36 and week 37. These are the closest I have:
4752903042 3559575
4752901848 3749146

It has been only 13 years, but it is time to resurrect this thread so that new people can add new information. Two things that we are looking for: 1) VIN & Karmann # on the tag in the front trunk when it first appeared, or the last use of the rear trunk stamping. The Karmann # is also on the paint tag. 2) VIN & Karmann # on the tag in the front trunk when it changed from the base 9500 to base 9000. Paint tag and compliance decal photos also very useful. Do you have a CoA or window sticker? I need them also.

I logged on to find Dave with a similar question to ask and ran across this thread while searching the 1975 model year chassis numbers for cars made in Sept/Oct of 1974.

Years ago I started a small database on these cars and never got back to it until now.

Here is another to add on the base change from 9500 to 9000 chassis numbers.

VIN Number: 4752901849
Engine Number: EV Conversion
Chassis Number: 3749284
Build Date: 09/74
Paint Code/Color: L64K - Forest Green
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/bringatrailer.com-25305-1646940820.1.jpeg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/bringatrailer.com-25305-1646940820.2.jpeg)

[MCShack]

Notice that the 5th digit (3rd from end) in the Chassis Number is a "2" which I have found to be quite rare. I am trying to determine the reason for a 2 or a 3 in this position of the Chassis Numbers on certain 914s. Almost all of the ones I have found with a 1, 2, or 3 were made in the 37th week (2nd week of Sept) of 1974 on '75 MY 914s. I have found a few examples of this ranging from week 36 to week 41, but most are in week 37. I plan to start a new thread on this subject with a few examples to get things started to see what the explanation might be for the anomalies in the Chassis Numbers in these weeks other than there were 284 cars made that day which seems unlikely. I found another example with a Chassis Number of 3719361 and I also don't think they made 361 cars on a Monday, lol.

I have some more information and theories that I will share in the new thread which I will post a link to here since it is a related subject. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from some of you with knowledge on this matter. Cheers, MC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

Notice that the 5th digit (3rd from end) in the Chassis Number is a "2" which I have found to be quite rare. I am trying to determine the reason for a 2 or a 3 in this position of the Chassis Numbers on certain 914s. Almost all of the ones I have found with a 1, 2, or 3 were made in the 37th week (2nd week of Sept) of 1974 on '75 MY 914s. I have found a few examples of this ranging from week 36 to week 41, but most are in week 37. I plan to start a new thread on this subject with a few examples to get things started to see what the explanation might be for the anomalies in the Chassis Numbers in these weeks other than there were 284 cars made that day which seems unlikely. I found another example with a Chassis Number of 3719361 and I also don't think they made 361 cars on a Monday, lol.

I have some more information and theories that I will share in the new thread which I will post a link to here since it is a related subject. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from some of you with knowledge on this matter. Cheers, MC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

found something of interest for you mate.
i posted it up in the other thread you left your comments on in the garage section.

this is a week 37 of 1974 beetle cab (75MY) built at karmann.





https://www.gocars.org/for-sale-view-38210/...s-indiana-46268

most beetles from karmann i dug up were using 3 as 5th letter during 75 MY.
then i found this one. so maybe using 2 and 3?
(i did find one using 0 from week 42 but the tag looked suspect).

so as you say, whats a 914 doing using 2 (and its the same week!)

you are on to something.
not sure what.
but something happened that week.

EDIT
did some further crosschecking for you as i don't know beetles kgs etc well.
i took a look at the vin plates on those beetles.
the one above is definitely a 75MY. 155 for first three numbers of vin.
it was built in aug 74.

[davep]

It would appear then that the 914 shared the Karmann line with Beetles, and the Karmann build # could be for either model. What we need to do then is to gather more examples of the Karmann tag numbers, VIN, DOT labels and paint codes and see how they fit. My guess is that they mesh.

[wonkipop]

It would appear then that the 914 shared the Karmann line with Beetles, and the Karmann build # could be for either model. What we need to do then is to gather more examples of the Karmann tag numbers, VIN, DOT labels and paint codes and see how they fit. My guess is that they mesh.

yes, i think your suggestion of sharing the line with beetle cabriolets in late 74 for 75 MY could be the reason.

you can find all those factory photos showing that kgs and vw cabs came down the line together in earlier years.

in the 60s it looked karmann put three types through all mixed togehter inclluding type 3 ghias.

what photos there are of 914 production seem to show them having their own separate production line. photos i mention probably at an early period of the model life?

the production figures from 73 to 75 tell an interesting story.
hard to know if figures around are MY figures or calendar year, but the general indications tell enough.
all three models go into serious decline. kg stops in 74 MY.
for 75 there is only 7925 914s (def cal year number) and 5,327 vw cabs.
914 numbers half of 74 and cab numbers similar halving.

a smart company would have rationalised the lines and space in the factory.

need more historic info on what karmann did in terms of their factory after mid 74,
but probably either shifted cabs over to section where they made 914s or vise versa and started setting up new production line for the water cooled vw scirroco?

whatever is going on that @MCShack has picked up on is after summer break of 74 and the end of kg production.

info i came across said 500,000 scirocco mk 1 s made from 74 to 81.
= av 70,000 per year.
seriously more production volume than any previous karmann vw model.
about 3 to 4 times best 914 numbers or cab numbers.
think best vw cab numbers were 18,000. less than best 914 numbers.
would have needed a good amount of factory space and probably two shifts a day maybe to pump out the sciroccos? big changes at factory.

definitely the reason for ending 914 production at end of 75 calendar year was expanding the production line to gear up for scirocco production for USA market which came after introduction in europe for 75 MY, 74 calendar year.

folks talk of 924 as successor to 914. only if you take a USA/porsche perspective.
in europe makes more sense to see the scirocco as the 914 successor?

sciroccos early on used same seven digit PKN number (referred to here as karmann body number) system as beetles 914s etc. with a particular 5th digit assigned to them?

[L-Jet914]

Thanks for the data point. I have a list of 250 cars to query the owners of. However it is slow going, and I have to track each one to know where I am at.
Dave

I will supply the information for my 74 1.8L. I will get the last photo you request tomorrow. I need to unbury the car lol.

[davep]

Perhaps there are Karmann aficionados with much greater knowledge about the production lines than what we do. I have no idea where to find such people, and my online time these days is very limited. Most of that time is dedicated to providing Kardex and my CoA equivalents. Dave

[wonkipop]

Perhaps there are Karmann aficionados with much greater knowledge about the production lines than what we do. I have no idea where to find such people, and my online time these days is very limited. Most of that time is dedicated to providing Kardex and my CoA equivalents. Dave

think its an on the ground job in germany dave.

i don't have any plans on going there any time soon ------ if ever.

i know some folks in the karmann club here that have been into them for decades.
but they probably don't have much either.
i might ask next time i see them.
sometimes someone has some stuff you have never seen before.

[wonkipop]

@davep

i have worked out a bit more of the pattern.

fairly sure this is how it goes from examples of karmann ghias i could find relatively easily on BAT.

74 Karmann Ghia Cabriolets used 0 as the 5th numeral in the PKN number.



74 Karmann Ghia coupes used 1 as the 5th numeral.





KG production ceased at the end of june 1974.

1975 914s took over the KG PKN numbers using 0 and 1 as 5th numeral.
(except for those small number of exceptions that MCShack found - still unexplained - but maybe are errors?).

------

this car is currently for sale in australia.
pure luck coming across it - just hit the market.
1976 VW Scirocco. built dec75-jan76.
pkn # would say dec 18 1975.
just as the last 914s went out the door.

the PKN number is just legible in the images.
its 504-9590. the last two numbers are hard to read and not 100% but the 5th is clear as a 5.

looks like the scirocco did take over at least one of the earlier 914 numbers.
#5






in summary from 75 on.

914 = 0 and 1.
VW beetles use 2 (and potentially 3).
sciroccos use 5 (and potentially 4 and/or 6).
(EDIT INSERT. forgot i found a 79 scirocco a few weeks back with the 6 in as 5th number. safe to say that both the earlier 914 numbers of 5 and 6 went across to the sciroccos).

those three are the only vw models being made by karmann in model year 75/76.
no other cars being assembled/manufactured by karmann for other makes (eg BMW) use the PKN #. its a VW assigned number and is across all VW manufacturing sites and is not a unique Karmann convention.

[wonkipop]

@davep and @JeffBowlsby .

i saw in that sale ad for scirocco owner had a certificate from the VW museum.

wondering if this is an alternative source for certificates of authenticity for 914/4s - given that you can only get it via an expensive technical certificate program from porsche these days.

[davep]

@wonkipop
I have my own sources for data and make up my own pseudo-CoA type of Report with more items and greater detail than the CoA. Also Kardex for the 1969 and earlier cars. Helping clients with these items keeps me occupied when I am not hanging out here. If anyone is interested in this service, then email me for my order info package PDF.

[Shivers]

[Shivers]

[davep]

Thanks for that data point. Did your compliance decal survive?

[Shivers]

Thanks for that data point. Did your compliance decal survive?

Is that this one

[Cairo94507]

That's the one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[cholland_]

@davep
sciroccos use 5 (and potentially 4 and/or 6).
(EDIT INSERT. forgot i found a 79 scirocco a few weeks back with the 6 in as 5th number. safe to say that both the earlier 914 numbers of 5 and 6 went across to the sciroccos).

Here's the body tag from my '75 Scirocco (#11186) - made at the Karmann factory while 914 production was still ongoing, at least for another year.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i.imgur.com-7029-1652664273.1.jpg)