Oiling problems on sharp turns, Whats your oiling solution? Options

[hedfurst]

The CB dry sump pump is compatible with pretty much any existing oil cooler, stock or otherwise, that has already been installed. It's not the ideal dry sump pump, but it works. It draws the oil out of the engine through the factory pickup and circulates it out to a holding tank. The pump then draws the oil back from the holding tank and passes it to the primary gears which then send the oil into the engine as a conventional pump would.

If you have full flowed your case already and have a remote OC plumbed up you wouldn't have to do anything different with it. As a matter of fact I now believe this is the best routing with this pump as cooling the oil after it has passed through the pump should lead to cooler oil. On our F-Prod car we routed the oil through a cooler and filter and then returned it to the tank. In this scenario the cooled oil passes back through the pump which is likely hotter than the oil. I wouyld add a filter between the tank and the out let line from the pump. It will keep the tank from collecting particles of wear.

A conventional upright holding tank would be a challenge to mount in a car with a funtioning passenger seat. Fortunately holding tanks are easy to build and could even be mounted in the rear trunk. A search of dry sump tanks on e-bay almost always reveals custom units for sale that might be easier to mount in a tighter space. Make sure you have some method of preventing the holding tank from draining into the engine when you shut it off. We use a manual ball valve. It works fine for us because our team is good about check list and it always gets opened before the engine is started. If you don't have some method of preventing drain back the engine will fill with oil and the pistons will pump it out your vents into your breather tank on the next start-up.

Very good, any clearance problems with the cooling fan or are you using a DTM?

[HAM Inc]

No issues with the cooling fan. We use a Vanagon shroud, but the 914 shroud will clear as well. The factory mount brackets that bolt to the case do have clearance issues, however. Kevin Groot uses this pump on his E-Prod car and I believe he fabbed his alternate mount from a piece of angle iron that mounts with the bottom two bolts and sits direclty on the cross bar. I made a similar mount, but I welded a brace that uses the upper passenger side mount bracket bolt boss. I had to mill a slot in the bracket for a pipe nipple to pass through to the pump. I wanted the extra support, though Kevin has had no issues with his bracket. I made one of these for Tom Burdge and he reported no issues with it. If you needed one we could produce it for you.
You will not be able to retain the OE rubber mounts. But I believe the early 914's had rubber mounts outboard instead of inboard at the engine, so perhaps you could use that set-up if you don't want to hard mount the drivetrain. I'm not 100% sure about this as nearly all of my 914 experience (beyond the engine) has been with race prepped cars, mostly our own.

[Aaron Cox]

please show a pic of your bracket Len,

Thanks!
Aaron

[hedfurst]

Oh-boy, got to have it! I think that this is the anwer!
Len, let me know what I need to do.
Also would like to see pictures/diagram of your set up if it's not tooo much trouble.
I have been looking at this pump for some time. This issue is near and dear to me, it has already cost me one rebuild too many.
Thanks,
Fred

[HAM Inc]

Aaron I would be glad to snap a photo, but the part is on the car and I can't get an angle that will show it. Next time I have it off I'll snap a shot of it.
Fred the link shows the plumbing diagram for the CB pump. I would suggest not routing into the cooler as it shows. Use what ever you currently have set-up. You will need to run a pipe tap into the pump body to enlarge the existing threads. For some reason they are under machined. Perhaps so the installer can ensure the nipple he uses fits properly. Use black pipe, not brass as the brass can crack.

http://www.cbperformance.com/images/DSOPSHU.jpg

Jake said he is developing a dry sump pump that will work similar to this one, but I'm sure it will be a better piece. We have not heard of any problems with the CB pump, but it can be improved upon.

[hedfurst]

Aaron I would be glad to snap a photo, but the part is on the car and I can't get an angle that will show it. Next time I have it off I'll snap a shot of it.
Fred the link shows the plumbing diagram for the CB pump. I would suggest not routing into the cooler as it shows. Use what ever you currently have set-up. You will need to run a pipe tap into the pump body to enlarge the existing threads. For some reason they are under machined. Perhaps so the installer can ensure the nipple he uses fits properly. Use black pipe, not brass as the brass can crack.

http://www.cbperformance.com/images/DSOPSHU.jpg

Jake said he is developing a dry sump pump that will work similar to this one, but I'm sure it will be a better piece. We have not heard of any problems with the CB pump, but it can be improved upon.

Cool, why do you recommend not routing through the cooler?
Have you completely eliminated the factory filter/cooler? I am currently using a wafer adaptor for my ext. cooler.
The CB tank offering holds 12q, what is the volume that you use?
Also, I would like one of your mounts, just let me know what $ to send you.
thanks Len,
Fred

[groot]

Here's a shot of my simple attachment. Note that the bottom of the case rests on the angle and there's a small bracket that reaches back to grab another case bolt (fuzzy picture).

Also, note that this isn't my current arrangement. I've done away with the rubber mounts, but not because they didn't work, for other reasons.


Len-I've had some oiling thoughts recently. I'll take some pics and run the idea by you. I'm travelling now for work, so it'll be a few days.

[HAM Inc]

Fred the reason I recommend running the cooler the way you currently have it routed and not as part of the drysump plumbing is that the hot oil exits the pump, thereby heating the pump. If you return the oil to the pump from the tank then send it to the cooler (using your present routing) you will send cooler oil to the bearings than if you passed the cooled oil back through the heated pump.

We run a 12 qt tank, which we fill about 3/4.

Kevins bracket looks good to me. Kevin I thought you only had two bolts holding yours on. Glad it's really three. When looking at the first photo Kevin posted my bracket looks like his, but I welded a vertical piece of angle to the passenger side of the horizontal angle that bolts in at the original bracket upper mount boss. I first slotted the vertical piece so the pipe nipple passes through it.
Kevin send me an e-mail when you get back. I want to hear your oiling ideas and bounce some ideas off you.

[Brett W]

You really need to be running a three or four stage pump to get the maximum benefit from a drysump system. The valve covers hold a bunch of oil and you have to be able to suck that oil out and not wait for gravity to takes its effect and it drain back to the sump.

If you look at real race engines you will see at least three and four pickups on the suction side. On the V8s oil is sucked from each valve cover, the oil pan, and the lifter valley. The CB system doesn't do that. It pulls from one place, the place where the T4 has all the problems to begin with.

[hedfurst]

[quote name='Brett W' date='Nov 13 2007, 08:01 AM' post='966229']
You really need to be running a three or four stage pump to get the maximum benefit from a drysump system. The valve covers hold a bunch of oil and you have to be able to suck that oil out and not wait for gravity to takes its effect and it drain back to the sump.

If you look at real race engines you will see at least three and four pickups on the suction side.
Makes sense to me.
thanks len.
What exactly is a 3 or 4 stage pump? Multiple pick-ups or multiple pumps?
There's not really alot of space in a 914 for a much bigger/longer pump.
How many pickups in a 911? I've never seen the inside of one. What's their sump tank volume?

[race914]

[quote name='hedfurst' date='Nov 13 2007, 10:28 AM' post='966268']
[quote name='Brett W' date='Nov 13 2007, 08:01 AM' post='966229']
You really need to be running a three or four stage pump to get the maximum benefit from a drysump system. The valve covers hold a bunch of oil and you have to be able to suck that oil out and not wait for gravity to takes its effect and it drain back to the sump.

If you look at real race engines you will see at least three and four pickups on the suction side.
Makes sense to me.
thanks len.
What exactly is a 3 or 4 stage pump? Multiple pick-ups or multiple pumps?
There's not really alot of space in a 914 for a much bigger/longer pump.
How many pickups in a 911? I've never seen the inside of one. What's their sump tank volume?
[/quote]

Like Brett says, multi stage pumps let you scavenge oil from several areas: the crankcase, valve covers, etc. Here are some examples of what's out there

http://www.autocraftengines.com/product6.htm

[HAM Inc]

There's no doubt that a multi stage dry sump system is superior to the CB pump. But the CB pump is affordable and not to difficult to hook up, and it is way better than a stock or even modified wet sump system.

BTW, real race cars don't have doors.

[race914]

There's no doubt that a multi stage dry sump system is superior to the CB pump. But the CB pump is affordable and not to difficult to hook up, and it is way better than a stock or even modified wet sump system.

BTW, real race cars don't have doors.

Good one Len!

[Brett W]

Who cares how much one of the most important pieces of hardware on your engine costs? What is the cost of a good race motor? 10K$, 15k$, 30k$? I don't see any reason to waste an engine because a decent oiling system was "too expensive".

Real race cars have doors when SCCA says, "doors must capable of being opened or or removed".

[HAM Inc]

One must keep in mind that budgets for racers are typically tight. The CB pump has worked well in every race condition we've exposed it to (when properly plumbed). We've examined the bearings on several hi-strung E-& F-Prod engines using the pump and they looked good enough to reinstall, even on one engine that had 300+* oil temps and multiple missed shifts.
A plus for the CB pump is no belt to fly off. A minus is no multi stage scavenge or crankcase vacuum.
For the racer or AX guy who is faced with oil starvation and a mulit stage drysump system will sap his tire bill for thenext two years, (or the babies diaper money, or the house payment) the CB pump is a great option. We will continue to use ours until Jake finishes development of his improved version. Using this style pump we have no belts whatsoever on our car and a big stove pipe shoved through the firewall right up to the fan shroud, which would be tough to do with belts.

I still maintain that real race cars don't have doors, I don't give a damn what SCCA says. I race a car with doors, (I don't use them) but I don't pretend it's a real race car. Real race cars began as a clean sheet of paper and were designed for racing from the get-go.
Want to see some real race cars? Click on the link.
http://www.ismasupers.com/

[jhadler]

I think the CB setup looks like a great option that doesn't bust the budget. If I could go to a dry sump setup I would. Rules, darn pesky rules... Plus, there's the weight gain from going to a 12 qt. dry sump.

As for a "real race car"??? Come on kids...

What was the first race car? The one that the guy driving it was in... A real race car is one that is optimized for competition. If it started from a production chassis, or a clean sheet of paper, a race car is a race car. Door slammer, or open wheeler...

Some would say that a real race car is a rally prepped Scooby STi, some would say it's a sports racer, some would say it's anything that runs on slicks, some would say that if it doesn't have a V8 it's not a "real race car". Geez...

-Josh2

[race914]

I saw a clip on Speed once featuring "Alex Zanardi, the early years". I guess after one race he was back in the pits... opened his door, and an passing car took it off! His comment was "that's when I moved up to cars with no doors"..