 MassIVe redefined., This should seriously influence future "six Vs four" debates |
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| lotus_65 |
 Oct 11 2007, 07:17 AM
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#21
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Senior Member  Group: Members Posts: 1,608 Joined: 21-March 05 From: minneapolis, mn Member No.: 3,795 Region Association: Northstar Region  |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Oct 11 2007, 04:21 AM)  I'm working on a deal for a 64 C sunroof that's a good driver car... I'm keeping it bone stock except a taller 4th gear and fuel injected TIV power. 914s are definately cheaper, but the 356 is money in the bank- Ghia? Beck 904? |
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| DNHunt |
Oct 11 2007, 08:02 AM
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#22
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
Amazing, I'd give my left nut for that. Oh wait, the wife's already got that. Maybe the right nut and I'll just get a script for testosterone.
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| angerosa |
Oct 11 2007, 08:11 AM
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 21-August 07 From: Reston, VA Member No.: 8,023 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
Jake - I'm an engineer myself and the question I hate the most is "When".
So - I'm asking after you compute all the time it will take to get through all the unknowns left in the design process that you can't possibly make a guess at... When do you see this ready for production? Give it to us in terms of "more than - less than". Even if you say something like more than 1 year - less than 3 years. |
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| MJHanna |
Oct 11 2007, 08:25 AM
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#24
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Does this 911 make my butt look big? Group: Members Posts: 805 Joined: 23-January 03 From: Lowry Crossing, Texas Member No.: 185 |
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| URY914 |
Oct 11 2007, 08:34 AM
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#25
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I built the lightest 914 in the history of mankind. Group: Members Posts: 120,983 Joined: 3-February 03 From: Jacksonville, FL Member No.: 222 Region Association: None |
I can see into the future and I see Jake designing an engine on a clean sheet of paper or CAD file. Case, heads, crank, etc, etc, etc...
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| Jake Raby |
Oct 11 2007, 08:57 AM
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#26
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(URY914 @ Oct 11 2007, 07:34 AM) I can see into the future and I see Jake designing an engine on a clean sheet of paper or CAD file. Case, heads, crank, etc, etc, etc... I am offering some consulting for a team of guys that are currently doing this, they are a serious bunch in the machine shop but need "combo" assistance and optimization after they are done. Thats all I can say about it.. BUT I will say that I am NOT exploring possibilities for a billet or cast type 4 replacement case- there is no need at all. I believe we'll be making numbers north of 500 HP with the stock case within the next two years. I like to capitalize on the TIV case, and these heads should get us to the level where we finally start breaking them. I have already been working for months on the items that will be necessary to properly support the power output of Porkie equipped engines. The one thats first up is the crankshaft, so here is our in house design of the MK-I billet TIV crankshaft and a pic of it's 7" chunk of billet 4340 Chromoly being roughed in the manual lathe before going into the NC turning center.   These cranks are being machined in the same machine shop as the Porkies head and they are being whittled out literally as I type this post. As for "When" all I can answer is ASAP! We have already worked through all the hurdles created by Shad's "Engineering" as this particular head was in the 4th and 5th axis machines and thats been 4 months of solid pain in the asss because each challenge created another- we used common sense to overcome the issues and now the programming is 100% completed that will be needed to complete the MK-II heads. The rocker arms are now being designed as a collaborativeeffort between my team, Len Hoffman and the machine shop and we are attacking the issues with a vengence as it's our only hurdle at this point to overcome. The differing valve angles of the head make this rocker design much more involved- you won't believe how wild they are going to look. The good thing about billet and CNC is we can modify each pair of heads to make updates without having to change molds and etc. Originally these heads were going to be small run cast and we fully intend to do this IF they are effective and worth their price tag. We'l wait to get a final version tested before taking the casting possibilities further. This head will be going to Len tonight for seats, guides and initial flow work to tell us where we stand! Give me 4 months to have the MK-II heads on a running engine, 30 minutes to break that engine and another year to work out the details. This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Oct 11 2007, 09:00 AM |
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| Chris Pincetich |
Oct 11 2007, 10:33 AM
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#27
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B-) Group: Members Posts: 2,082 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Point Reyes Station, CA Member No.: 4,907 Region Association: Northern California |
I see 5 bolts on that...I'm guessing it will mate with a 914 flywheel.
One 4 vs. 6 debate item is our 901 transaxle, which is not up to handling MassIVe torque. Perhaps you have plans to use other transaxles in the near future, or I guess that is probably up to the buyer to figure out. Conversion flywheels can be made....just wondering out loud what the target transaxle for this project is or if it will be built as a dyno queen first. Keep up the good work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
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| Jake Raby |
Oct 11 2007, 10:39 AM
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#28
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
I have no intentions of installing one of these into a 914 for my test work, most of it will be done in the 356 and TI platforms.
I can only hope we create the power to snap the 901 transaxle in half- thats a great problem to have! Anything can be made for flywheels. The crank I pictured is just one model that is set up to accept the stock TIV/914 flywheel as a bolt on, another model is also being built that has a large flange to spread the load of the flywheel over a greater cross section of the crank attachment point. I never leave things "for the buyer to figure out". My specialty is creating fully optimized engine/transaxle packages with fully developed sub systems. We'll cross the tranny bridge when we come to it, more than liklely these creations may never make it into the 914 application, but creating alternatives is what makes it fun for me.. |
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| brer |
Oct 11 2007, 10:41 AM
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#29
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,555 Joined: 10-March 05 From: san diego Member No.: 3,736 Region Association: None |
Thats a nice bit of modelling Jake.
Port modelling is infinitely complex, and those are looking pretty hot. Did you pull the shape from a handmade model or create it totally in the computer? |
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| Jake Raby |
Oct 11 2007, 11:00 AM
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#30
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
It was 100% scratch modeled, nothing was CMMd or digitized.
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| thomasotten |
Oct 11 2007, 11:46 AM
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#31
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,546 Joined: 16-November 03 From: San Antonio, Texas Member No.: 1,349 |
QUOTE(angerosa @ Oct 11 2007, 06:11 AM) Jake - I'm an engineer myself and ... From listening to the radio shows and reading posts, I have learned to never start a conversation with Jake with those words... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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| Brian Mifsud |
Oct 11 2007, 12:03 PM
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#32
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Mechanical Engineer Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 3-March 03 From: Penngrove, CA Member No.: 384 Region Association: None |
Hemi Combustion Chambers like PUCH and Moto Guzzi?
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| cnavarro |
Oct 11 2007, 12:08 PM
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#33
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Cylinder Guru Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Chicagoland! Member No.: 49 Region Association: None |
Not a compact wedge or a hemi. :-)
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| Jake Raby |
Oct 11 2007, 12:17 PM
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#34
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Oct 11 2007, 11:03 AM) Hemi Combustion Chambers like PUCH and Moto Guzzi? Hemi is yesterdays news compared to this chamber design. Here is a teaser for ya. Its a model of the chamber/piston crown relationships.  And now for the throttle body.  We have been busting our asses!!! |
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| Brian Mifsud |
Oct 11 2007, 12:18 PM
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#35
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Mechanical Engineer Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 3-March 03 From: Penngrove, CA Member No.: 384 Region Association: None |
How many buyers for a $15-20,000 engine?
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| rhodyguy |
Oct 11 2007, 12:26 PM
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#36
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Chimp Sanctuary NW. Check it out. Group: Members Posts: 22,085 Joined: 2-March 03 From: Orion's Bell. The BELL! Member No.: 378 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
my guess is the euro guys running t-4s in their tricked out super beetles would be all over them. they spend silly money.
k |
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| Brian Mifsud |
Oct 11 2007, 12:32 PM
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#37
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Mechanical Engineer Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 3-March 03 From: Penngrove, CA Member No.: 384 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Oct 11 2007, 11:26 AM) my guess is the euro guys running t-4s in their tricked out super beetles would be all over them. they spend silly money. k So the "target market" is professional racers with substantial engine budgets? The reason I ask is the premise of this post is this new engine will be competitive with a 6 cylinder. Competitive to me includes the issue of cost, reliability, etc, not just performance. |
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| grantsfo |
Oct 11 2007, 12:47 PM
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#38
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Oct 11 2007, 11:32 AM) QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Oct 11 2007, 11:26 AM) my guess is the euro guys running t-4s in their tricked out super beetles would be all over them. they spend silly money. k So the "target market" is professional racers with substantial engine budgets? The reason I ask is the premise of this post is this new engine will be competitive with a 6 cylinder. Competitive to me includes the issue of cost, reliability, etc, not just performance. I think this is trick enough that we can thow out all the conventional 6 verses 4 stuff. It is about as relevant as having a 4 verses 8 argument. This is just cool regardless of price, reliability etc. I dont think this is any thing that will make it into mass production so comparisons to a production like six motor really dont make sense. Having said that a trick 3.6 six would probably be up to the task of keeping up with any motor built with these heads. If Jakes smart he'll keep production of this to very exclusive and limited market of crazy enthusiasts who have very deep pockets for their toys. This post has been edited by grantsfo: Oct 11 2007, 12:48 PM |
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| Brian Mifsud |
Oct 11 2007, 12:59 PM
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#39
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Mechanical Engineer Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 3-March 03 From: Penngrove, CA Member No.: 384 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Oct 11 2007, 11:47 AM) QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Oct 11 2007, 11:32 AM) QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Oct 11 2007, 11:26 AM) my guess is the euro guys running t-4s in their tricked out super beetles would be all over them. they spend silly money. k So the "target market" is professional racers with substantial engine budgets? The reason I ask is the premise of this post is this new engine will be competitive with a 6 cylinder. Competitive to me includes the issue of cost, reliability, etc, not just performance. I think this is trick enough that we can thow out all the conventional 6 verses 4 stuff. It is about as relevant as having a 4 verses 8 argument. This is just cool regardless of price, reliability etc. I dont think this is any thing that will make it into mass production so comparisons to a production like six motor really dont make sense. Having said that a trick 3.6 six would probably be up to the task of keeping up with any motor built with these heads. If Jakes smart he'll keep production of this to very exclusive and limited market of crazy enthusiasts who have very deep pockets for their toys. That makes sense. I eat-drink-and-sleep "productizing", i.e. take a design and make is manufacturable. I can't help but think these questions when I see Billet. Right now, I see "massive" man/machining hours, and retail pricing accordingly. The target market dictates how many you will build, and that of course influences how you go about producing ie. chiseling out of a billet, rough cast and machine, or die cast and "clean up". I think that there is an element of "Underdog" in the "4 vs 6 debate". But that kind of gets nuked when you build from scratch???? I can't imagine having 'crazy money', so I can't imagine myself ever owning this product. The Manufacturing Engineer in me want to immediately "redesign" for cost.... Certainly it is got it's cool factor and I appreciate the work to get there. |
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| Jake Raby |
Oct 11 2007, 01:02 PM
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#40
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(Brian Mifsud @ Oct 11 2007, 11:18 AM) How many buyers for a $15-20,000 engine? You'd be supriseed. Very suprised because that is being spent today for 1/2 the potential output these heads bring to the table. The heads will only add 4-5K to an engine build, but DOUBLE the power output! Professional racers, or racers in general are not who will buy these heads and they are NOT being developed for racing purposes. It has been my experience that developments and results create their own target markets. EVERY time I have taken the time to create something there has been a buyer for that, but it did take time to get the results. This car is first in line for a set.. (IMG:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/marekV8/HERBIE%20GLAMOUR/DTMHerbie139.jpg) (IMG:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/marekV8/HERBIE%20GLAMOUR/DTMHerbie048.jpg) |
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