MassIVe redefined., This should seriously influence future "six Vs four" debates Options

[Jake Raby]

Brian,
Right now it is imperative that we have the capability to make changes to EVERY pair of heads as we move through development. Billet is more expensive to do right now, but ALL that matters is results to me, not cost and not productivity.

I worry about all that bullshit after I get my results.

Thats because when you are doing what you love, every day, all day long and you have loved being the under dog for as long as I have money don't make a difference at all.

[rhodyguy]

no brian, you asked who and i replied. not ness just racers. guy's with their street/autobahn machines. some guys want all the latest bells and whistles, and are willing to pay for the experience. look at the guys who build the RSR replicas we read about in excellence. then there's the 365 folks. WOW!!! wacky...

k

[Brian Mifsud]

How many buyers for a $15-20,000 engine?

This car is first in line for a set..
(IMG:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/marekV8/HERBIE%20GLAMOUR/DTMHerbie139.jpg)
[/img]

Innovative way of fitting and hiding oil coolers. So I'm guessing there is no longer a well under the rear seat to house the battery and accumulate old french fries (that still smell surprisingly good??)

What is that scoop feeding air to?

Movie Car??

[Jake Raby]

The car has air conditioning, dry sump oiling, EFI/direct fire, full fire system and next he is adding a pneumatic jacking system..

Under the rear seat is all the audio components, behind the back seat is the oil tank and etc...

[rhodyguy]

the muffler support on that pictured car is slick.

k

[Jake Raby]

Racer Chris' handy work.......

[Brian Mifsud]

I worry about all that bullshit after I get my results.

I ride herd on designers all day who want unlimited freedom in getting their product designed. Unlimited freedom in design usually means maximum development cost. I understand you are only a couple steps up from the "Brainstorming" end of the development cycle. You've got to get all the geometry worked out as first priority.

The "Bullshit" end has kept me gainfully employed for 15 years now... (I guess that makes me a farmer....) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

..... but.. keeping in mind how you are going to go about building in quantity as you develop the design is very valuable, as you overcome most of the hurdles of productizing on the fly, rather then burning many months redesigning to meet the limitations/capabilities of a manufacturing process. If the guy who is going to crank these out for you is involved in the development process, he can point out where he'd like a tooling feature, or how some close tolerance is gonna cost you big in time and scrap rate, etc....

For onsy-twosy, this is all irrelevant....

[grantsfo]

my guess is the euro guys running t-4s in their tricked out super beetles would be all over them. they spend silly money.

k

So the "target market" is professional racers with substantial engine budgets?

The reason I ask is the premise of this post is this new engine will be competitive with a 6 cylinder. Competitive to me includes the issue of cost, reliability, etc, not just performance.

I think this is trick enough that we can thow out all the conventional 6 verses 4 stuff. It is about as relevant as having a 4 verses 8 argument. This is just cool regardless of price, reliability etc. I dont think this is any thing that will make it into mass production so comparisons to a production like six motor really dont make sense. Having said that a trick 3.6 six would probably be up to the task of keeping up with any motor built with these heads.

If Jakes smart he'll keep production of this to very exclusive and limited market of crazy enthusiasts who have very deep pockets for their toys.

That makes sense. I eat-drink-and-sleep "productizing", i.e. take a design and make is manufacturable. I can't help but think these questions when I see Billet. Right now, I see "massive" man/machining hours, and retail pricing accordingly. The target market dictates how many you will build, and that of course influences how you go about producing ie. chiseling out of a billet, rough cast and machine, or die cast and "clean up".

I think that there is an element of "Underdog" in the "4 vs 6 debate". But that kind of gets nuked when you build from scratch????

I can't imagine having 'crazy money', so I can't imagine myself ever owning this product. The Manufacturing Engineer in me want to immediately "redesign" for cost....

Certainly it is got it's cool factor and I appreciate the work to get there.

Dang am I arguing for Jake now? Im clearly confused. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Have to say this about some of the coolest concept stuff I have seen. I dont care if it gets put in a glass case and is displayed as car art. It is just very cool work! I could see an outrageous 3.0 motor with these heads easily commanding $25K to $30K from the radical VW fringe crowd. You know guys who own mansions on Muai and want that ultlmate beach buggy.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Oct 11 2007, 04:48 PM

[Rand]

I would just love a mild MKII build... You know, 280 hp & torque, naturally aspirated, good for 200k miles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I could see an outrageous 3.0 motor with these heads easily commanding $25K to $30K from the radical VW fringe crowd. You know guys who own mansions on Muai and want that ultlmate beach buggy.

Actually a 3.2L engine going into a shortened VW split window bus- used only to haul his surf boards down to the beach... But this guy lives on the big island.

And he already owns another massIVe engine too :-)

The Manufacturing Engineer in me want to immediately "redesign" for cost....

Thats why we don't count beans around here... It cost power and possibilities. If all I worried about was money and sales I'd have 30 illegal aliens bolting shit together out back importing crap in from China not giving a damn about anything but how much I take to the bank every day.

We'd have to sell 500 pair of these heads to ever get a dollar out of them profit wise....
These are our versions of the Porsche 959 and what it's about it creating, developing and manipulating something that no one else has.

It's called spanking their asses.

[Brett W]

Look good. Hope you are going to be using some sort of Shaft Rocker system like the jesel stuff. Very high quality and easy to get.

The stock engine block is good for 600+hp. No need for another one. Flywheels will be an issue in drag racing but it should be OK for everything else.

[Jake Raby]

The machine shop that whittled these out will be making a shaft system similar to Jesel from scratch.

This part of the developmet is the part I expect to be the most challenging and thats because Shad got to this point with the heads and then stopped. The opposing angles for the intake and exhaust valves further complicate things.

[Brett W]

These shouldn't be much different than the SB2 or splayed valve heads from Chevy back in the 90s. The location of the rockers will be the biggest issue. I bet you could call Jesel and ask them their thoughts. They could probably lend their experience for a small few. Sometimes it is easier to talk to guys that have already done exactly what you are trying to do, to get the benefit of their failures.

Might even save you some money in the long run.

[Jake Raby]

Brett,
The issue with the SB2 splayed set up for rockers is the rocker length to meet our valve tips and pushrod tube positions...

Alot of whats used in these heads came from the SB2 and Cosworth designs..

[alpha434]

Yeah. Jake is going to have to use some funny length rockers to hit each valve.

It's just "finding" the right spot for the pivot. And calculating for a 2:1 ratio. Yee. Sweet.

[Brett W]

You raise a good point. I forgot how far away from the valves the pushrods are in these engines. They are really wide compared to the SBC style heads. SB2 is a good head. Makes great power. The new RO7 heads should be even better.

[Dr Evil]

Over head cam would kick ass (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Over head cam would kick ass (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

BUT it wouldn't fit into the unaltered engine bay of any of the cars we work with. With these cars being worth more and m,ore money daily the amount of people that are willing to compromise the car just to fit cylinder heads is pretty minimal.

The guys I am working with, that are creating their own scratch built HO 4 cylinder air cooled engine do plan on making a an OHC head for those engines in the future and myself and LN Engineering will be assisting them with development and testing.

These are the same guys that whittled out the pictured Porkies head- They are from New Zealand.

[Brett W]

Don't need OHC heads. You can make plenty of power with pushrods. The LS7 engine is killing anything else on the market right now with some pushrods. They aren't bad they just aren't F1 cool.

Good heads have always been the bane of the T4 engine. Once that is overcome, things could really start getting interesting in VW land.

[Jake Raby]

I agree.