better? 915 or boxster (5sp) transmission in 914 Options

[Aaron Cox]

what about oiling mods when they are run upside down?

[Wes V]

Dr Evil (and others);

I want to put in a V6 due to feeling that this best fits the character of the car. It could be a Nissan or Audi.

I like what neo914-6 is doing in regards to drivetrain! The Audi V6 (I'd get the car running NA before worrying about twin turbo's) bolts to the boxster transmission and using the boxster's shifter should be fairly straight forward. The comment by a prior poster that the Audi 012 transmission is the same opens up another option.

I could run a 915 transmission and use adapters to mate to which ever engine I wanted, but when you think about the money involved, it's a bit of a "turn off". The cost of the Wevo conversion is $2000 just to start off and I keep hearing that the "quality of shifting" isn't all that great (some will say that it's fine). Then there is the added cost of adapters for the engine.

I wouldn't want to run the 6 speed boxster due to it's physical size plus I'd guess that it comes at a pretty high cost. That's why the original title is specific in regards to the 5 speed unit.

Now all this may just sound like I'm cheap (and it may be true), but I've got a problem with putting in transmission that costs (when all costs are factored in) 4 times the cost of the initial car.

Wes

[andys]

Brett,

The output flanges on the transaxle in your photo are the same as the ones on my 01E 6 speed. The round Boxster style output flanges are far more common on the 012 than the spider type, and the advantage is that they fit the 911/Boxster CV's. Give me the code on your trans, and I'll look up the ratios and R&P if you don't have them already.

Wes,

If you want to run the Audi V6, then I'd suggest you simply buy the engine and transxle assembly, and not fool with trying to source two different components. The shfiter linkage on the trans is not all that difficult to fab up, and can be modeled after the Boxster.

Andys

[andys]

Wes,

I fogot to stress again the cost of the Boxster 5 speed, vs. the Audi/Passat alternative. At minimum, you'll pay double for the (same)Boxster (5 speed) transaxle. About two years ago, an '02 Passat 5 speed on Ebay didn't sell at $300. I shoulda grabbed it, as it had 22K miles on it AND it was local!

If you just gotta have the 6 speed, then you'll need to look in Europe for and Audi/Passat engine/trans assembly. Cars with front drive only 6 speed transaxles were never imported to North America. Since they don't commonly separate good engines from good transaxles over there, plenty should be available. Down side right now is the exchange rate is not so hot. The EURO is not too bad, but the GBP is double. You would of course have to pay to ship it. I can put you in touch with freight forwarders, if you wish. It's a lot of hassle though; I'd suggest you stay with the 5 speed stuff.

Andys

[Wes V]

five speed it is!

Wes

[Brett W]

Andy, I'll check the code for you. I picked this tranny up for 350 shipped I believe. Have to check, but you are right I see them all the time. The output shaft flanges interchange so I can change themif I need to. But since I am going to be running a twin turbo V8, I will need stronger axles. So I will probably make some kind of adapter for the 930 or Vette axles.

[Wes V]

How about the differences between the Audi 01E and 012??

Wes

[andys]

Andy, I'll check the code for you. I picked this tranny up for 350 shipped I believe. Have to check, but you are right I see them all the time. The output shaft flanges interchange so I can change themif I need to. But since I am going to be running a twin turbo V8, I will need stronger axles. So I will probably make some kind of adapter for the 930 or Vette axles.

Brett,

A twin turbo V8 sounds like some serious HP! Do you plan to put the 012 behind it? I would sure like to learn from your experience exactly how durable it turns out to be, as few have ever used an 012 behind high HP application, AFAIK. European 4.2L Audi A8's use the 012 5 speed, and that's a pretty heavy car.

BTW, Quaife makes an LSD for an 012 that's reasonably priced (as LSD's go). Also, the differential has four spider gears which in theory ought to provide strength to an otherwise weak area. Earlier Audi transaxles had two spiders.

I suppose at the low prices and abundant supply, it's no big if you wear it out or break it. Cheap to replace.

Andys

[Brett W]

Since I am a cheap Bastard I bought it to test. It will probably hold up decent for a while. I will probably only be putting 500-600 through it on the front end. Doubt it will make that much torque. Supposedly it is only rated at 280ft/lbs. Guess we'll find out.

[neo914-6]

five speed it is!

Wes

Wes,

Here's an example of a NA V6 Audi transplant with auto gearbox: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...A:IT&ih=016

Post your progress once you've begun...

[Wes V]

Post your progress once you've begun...

My god! Please don't hold your breath. I'm still doing research and have to get rid of my old project car first (and don't really want to).

I'm leaning toward the drivetrain that Neo has (but Audi 012 transmission, not boxster). I agree that it would have the same "character" as the original cars concept.

I've gotten a lot of input also from "Andys" and given a chance, want to go and check out his car. Some of the work he has done, that doesn't appear to be posted here, is totally amazing. Quite the engineering and fabricating!!!

Wes

[ajracer]

Wes & others:

Seems we all have our own comments and opinions on what will work, what is best
or the way to go. We should also take into consideration that IF you have the time,
money, abilities or contact everything is possible it you persist and work out the details.

In my case "I have" a Boxster 5 spd. behind my late model Chevy V8. and it didn't
cost $ 10,000 to do the conversion/custom installation of the Tranny. However it did
require some engineering and design by myself and others, along with fabrication.
There were challenges as well as some bumps along the way. But today I am
happy to say that it works fine on the street and on the race track.

Challenges along the way with my conversion:

A/ Custom make own adaptor plate
B/ Custom make own balanced flywheel
C/ Custom starter mount & special Porsche ring gear
D/ Custom hi-torque starter
E/ Custom make Clutch disc/pressure plate (Porsche)


Comments regarding my application after completion and use:

1/ Great shifting tranny with Boxster cable shifter setup and generally the tranny
is very good to work with.
2/ Actually the tranny has the Audi marking on the case since Audi
make the unit. (similar to Audi 5000Turbo components, and gears)
3/ Much stronger than the 915 and no need to flip the R&P
4/ Electric Speedo from a 911 works just fine.
5/ Uses a dual mass flywheel, thus a custom flywheel is needed if attaching
to another engine that Boxster.
6/ No one make an adaptor plate (custom item)
7/ Starter issue can be solved in most cases with a (custom mount and
slight modification to the actual Boxster bellhousing case. (non structural)
8/ Disadvantages currently, no aftermarkets gears or R&P available and thus
your top speed is limited to the engine RPM / tire sizes. In my case at 6,000
in fifth I only hit 130 MPH with the V8 engine. First gear is quite low and much
like the 901 not really needed or used much with the V8

Durability should be fine, even though I have had on the road for over a year,
but only a few thousand actual miles. According to the Porsche experts here in
Toronto, they state this tranny is very good and well suited for use with the V8.

Just my thoughts and comments after seeing this post and though I should pass
along whatever info and or experience I had available for others considering
something different. But like some others who posted I would also suggest if
possible doing a conversion to stick with the tranny that matched the engine as
it would usually appear to be the best arrangement. If anyone wants further info
on my project please drop me a line. Happy Motoring !

Allan
Toronto, Canada.

[andys]

Wes & others:

Seems we all have our own comments and opinions on what will work, what is best
or the way to go. We should also take into consideration that IF you have the time,
money, abilities or contact everything is possible it you persist and work out the details.

In my case "I have" a Boxster 5 spd. behind my late model Chevy V8. and it didn't
cost $ 10,000 to do the conversion/custom installation of the Tranny. However it did
require some engineering and design by myself and others, along with fabrication.
There were challenges as well as some bumps along the way. But today I am
happy to say that it works fine on the street and on the race track.

Challenges along the way with my conversion:

A/ Custom make own adaptor plate
B/ Custom make own balanced flywheel
C/ Custom starter mount & special Porsche ring gear
D/ Custom hi-torque starter
E/ Custom make Clutch disc/pressure plate (Porsche)


Comments regarding my application after completion and use:

1/ Great shifting tranny with Boxster cable shifter setup and generally the tranny
is very good to work with.
2/ Actually the tranny has the Audi marking on the case since Audi
make the unit. (similar to Audi 5000Turbo components, and gears)
3/ Much stronger than the 915 and no need to flip the R&P
4/ Electric Speedo from a 911 works just fine.
5/ Uses a dual mass flywheel, thus a custom flywheel is needed if attaching
to another engine that Boxster.
6/ No one make an adaptor plate (custom item)
7/ Starter issue can be solved in most cases with a (custom mount and
slight modification to the actual Boxster bellhousing case. (non structural)
8/ Disadvantages currently, no aftermarkets gears or R&P available and thus
your top speed is limited to the engine RPM / tire sizes. In my case at 6,000
in fifth I only hit 130 MPH with the V8 engine. First gear is quite low and much
like the 901 not really needed or used much with the V8

Durability should be fine, even though I have had on the road for over a year,
but only a few thousand actual miles. According to the Porsche experts here in
Toronto, they state this tranny is very good and well suited for use with the V8.

Just my thoughts and comments after seeing this post and though I should pass
along whatever info and or experience I had available for others considering
something different. But like some others who posted I would also suggest if
possible doing a conversion to stick with the tranny that matched the engine as
it would usually appear to be the best arrangement. If anyone wants further info
on my project please drop me a line. Happy Motoring !

Allan
Toronto, Canada.

Allen,

Perhaps for everyone's benefit, you ought to post some photos of your efforts.

AFAIK, you're the only one that has mated a non-Audi V8 to the Boxster/Audi 012 transaxle (The Audi 5000T used a model 016, and nearly everything on it is different). Please keep us abreast of its durability.

As for ratio's, nearly every Audi trans is limited to rather low ratios (not unlike the 901). There is rare exception however with certain 012 transaxles where taller gearsets are available, but they're not easy to find.

Andys

[GS Guy]

In the FWIW dept, an outfit in Oregon - GTA - was re-working the Audi 016 transaxles with a 3.22 R&P - to make them much more "ratio friendly" for a V8 conversion. Early reports were that the ratos were working out great on a 400+HP SBF/GT40 conversion. Not sure if this would work with the Boxter trans?
http://www.gtainc.biz/index.php

I believe the last update reported the reworked gearbox, including rebuild of a donor trans, + new Quaife LSD + new R&P was running around the $5K mark. I guess that places it somewhere in between a beefed up 901/914 and re-worked 915 cost-wise.

Too bad the Renault UN1 transaxles aren't more widely available in the states - these seem like the ideal transaxle to use with a mildly built V8 (when appropiately rebuilt with the HP components).

[andys]

In the FWIW dept, an outfit in Oregon - GTA - was re-working the Audi 016 transaxles with a 3.22 R&P - to make them much more "ratio friendly" for a V8 conversion. Early reports were that the ratos were working out great on a 400+HP SBF/GT40 conversion. Not sure if this would work with the Boxter trans?
http://www.gtainc.biz/index.php

I believe the last update reported the reworked gearbox, including rebuild of a donor trans, + new Quaife LSD + new R&P was running around the $5K mark. I guess that places it somewhere in between a beefed up 901/914 and re-worked 915 cost-wise.

Too bad the Renault UN1 transaxles aren't more widely available in the states - these seem like the ideal transaxle to use with a mildly built V8 (when appropiately rebuilt with the HP components).

GTA is a great bunch!
FWIW, A couple of years ago I spoke to them extensively about retrofitting the 016 with a 951 (944T) 3.44:1 ring and pinion resulting from the demands mostly from the GT40 replica builders. After some R&D (On their nickel), it was decided that an entirely new R&P was the best option. I hooked them up with some interested parties, and the rest is history. That 3.22:1 R&P transforms the 016 transaxle into a very well matched package for a high power, light weight car.

Andys

[jd74914]

AFAIK, you're the only one that has mated a non-Audi V8 to the Boxster/Audi 012 transaxle (The Audi 5000T used a model 016, and nearly everything on it is different). Please keep us abreast of its durability.

As for ratio's, nearly every Audi trans is limited to rather low ratios (not unlike the 901). There is rare exception however with certain 012 transaxles where taller gearsets are available, but they're not easy to find.

Andys

Wow, I didn't realize the 5000T used an 016 trans. I do know that the 5000T trans can hold a ton of HP. My buddy runs over 500hp (and about an equal amount of torque) through the transaxle on his 5000, and its basically a sleeper drag car. That is the only piece of the car he hasn't broken while doing 5K clutch drops with slicks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I too would like to see pictures of the boxster/v8 mate.

[ajracer]

Reply to Andys and other of interest !

Please find below some info I provided to another member regarding some info on this project along with some photos taken during the build phase about two years ago. The key components to the project are what you don't see, flywheel, clutch,
starter, etc. The adaptor plate was actually not too difficult. Here's some of the info:

A BIG QUESTION for many is more than just Tranny Prices vs Conversion costs !!
you can quite easily pick-up a used Boxster tranny (5 spd.) for about $ 1,500 - $ 2,000. BUT you need to know the following items are necessary for the conversion in addition to the actual tranny costs:

- two minor modifications to the tranny casing, non structure mods.
- hydraulic Clutch pedal assembly conversion.
- conversion of axles/hubs/brakes to the Porsche 5 bolt.
- Porsche 5 bolt axle assemblies and special length axles.
- Custom made adapter plate
- Custom built flywheel (for your particular engine)
- Custom Pilot Bushing/Bearing Spacer
- Special Porsche Starter Ring Gear
- Custom Clutch Assembly, Kelvar Disc.
- Custom Starter & Mounting Bracket.

No of the above items are commercially available, but would need to be designed, engineered and then custom built for you. This project was a project car for me and not
a business for me, however I did make templates of all the components mentioned above (except the hydraulic clutch conversion & 5 Bolt axles) and retained all my engineering drawings in order to re-duplicate the process or to sell to others if and when the need might arise. In my personal opinion to do this conversion it would cost over $ 5,000 for all the pieces including the tranny to complete the project. This would also depend upon your abilities as to what you can do yourself and what you would have to pay others to do. So you can see it is still a costly undertaking, BUT one sweet tranny, shifter and well working unit !

NOW I will provide some of photos which only give part of the project:

[ajracer]

Couple more photos

[andys]

ajaracer/Allen,

It's been several years since my last visit to Kennedy Eng'g (they are local to me). I had their 016 tooling plate in my own hands to see if by chance it would fit my 01E 6 speed. For a SBC application like your's, I seem to recall that the starter pocket would allow the use of their starter (they use a Toyota truck starter). From that, it seems you wouldn't have to machine the trans bellhousing. Everything else (clutch, flywheel, and PP) should fit with a little modification, and needs a new extended pilot bearing adapter. I think they also have the correct 15/16"-23 disc spline to fit the input shaft, IIRC......it's all from memory.

I haven't accurately measured the 012, but I believe the output flanges are not symmetrical about the centerline of the trans. If you offset the engine/trans assembly by 3/4" (which is what I did), won't the stock length 911 axles (assuming you've made the requsite 5 bolt upgrade) bolt right in?

I like your set up. It looks like the stock shifter cables and cabin shifter drop right into place.

Andys

[wbergtho]

I sure wish GM produces a car someday that utilizes a transaxle suitable for high HP applications. The list of possible transaxles that can be easily packaged into a 914 or other mid engine projects is narrow...reconfirming the fact that the mid engine configuration is a true rarity. If only GM made hundred's of thousands of midengined cars, the rest of us would salivate at the cheap American made junkyard prices, unlimited supply, and hopefully a wide array of gearing. Until something like this happens, we will be squeezed into using more expensive and less abundant gearboxes from mostly European cars. The handy thing about a GM box would be that it would fit a bunch of GM motors (no adapter plate). Sadly, My dream will more than likely remain a dream.

Bill

I currently use a flipped cable shifted 930 box mated to a 525HP LS6