timecert question, helicoil uncoiling Options

[VaccaRabite]

The skinny:
Spark plug helicoil is going bad - uncoiling out of the socket. I know that I want to timesert it to fix the problem.

BUT

Since the socket has a helicoil in it (that needs to come out) what size timecert do I need to get?

ALSO

How do I get the bad helicoil out of the head without doing further damage to the head? The head is off the engine, so I am not worried about bits of coil falling into the cylinder.

This site has MANY sert options, but I don't know which one I need. HELP?!
http://www.timesert.com/html/sparkplug.html

Thanks
Zach

[Cap'n Krusty]

You need a 3/4 inch long spark plug insert (14mm x 1.25). They use the same threads as a Helicoil, so you're good there, unless you screw up the threads. Just run the tap through, counter sink the hole, and away you go. You can generally grab the loose tip of the coil with needle nose pliers and just yank it out. The Cap'n

[Joe Ricard]

Yea what the crusty one said.

[HAM Inc]

Make sure you grab the tag end at the outside of the head (not the chamber side.) If you booger the first thread a little it won't be a problem since it will be removed when you do the counterbore operation.

You didn't say which engine you have, but if it is a 1.7 or 1.8, be very careful screwing the tap into the head. The 14mm pilot portion of the tap will likely make contact with the intake seat. This is worse on the 1.7's. You would think that the interference from one 1.8 (or 1.7) to another 1.8 or (1.7) would be the same, but it isn't. Some clear the seat okay, while others don't. If it is bad enough, cut off the pilot portion. A new tap will run you around $30.00. A lot cheaper than having another valve seat installed.
Once you have the head prepped for the TimeSert, make sure the shoulder on the insert fits into the counterbore before performing the swedging operation. You don't want to swedge and then find that the shoulder is sticking out of the head. If it sticks out the plug will seal against it and likely pull it out next plug change, which might mess up the threads. I have installed a blue million TimeSerts and have noticed that the QC on them is not what it used to be. I have to chuck a lot in the lathe and file down the shoulder so it fits properly.
Good luck!

[Dr Evil]

Len, thanks for posting your expertise here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I am glad you are on our side (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

Zach, I have a lathe if you need to use it.

[VaccaRabite]

The 14mm x 1.25 inserts come in multiple lengths.

(inch size and corresponding metric size)
Inch Metric
.270 7.0
.320 8.0
.370 9.4
.430 11.0
.530 13.5
.600 15.0
.660 16.8
.905 23.0

Which do I want?

Thanks guys.

Zach

[jimtab]

Make sure you grab the tag end at the outside of the head (not the chamber side.) If you booger the first thread a little it won't be a problem since it will be removed when you do the counterbore operation.

You didn't say which engine you have, but if it is a 1.7 or 1.8, be very careful screwing the tap into the head. The 14mm pilot portion of the tap will likely make contact with the intake seat. This is worse on the 1.7's. You would think that the interference from one 1.8 (or 1.7) to another 1.8 or (1.7) would be the same, but it isn't. Some clear the seat okay, while others don't. If it is bad enough, cut off the pilot portion. A new tap will run you around $30.00. A lot cheaper than having another valve seat installed.
Once you have the head prepped for the TimeSert, make sure the shoulder on the insert fits into the counterbore before performing the swedging operation. You don't want to swedge and then find that the shoulder is sticking out of the head. If it sticks out the plug will seal against it and likely pull it out next plug change, which might mess up the threads. I have installed a blue million TimeSerts and have noticed that the QC on them is not what it used to be. I have to chuck a lot in the lathe and file down the shoulder so it fits properly.
Good luck!

You don't need to cut the end off of the tap...just buy a bottom or plug tap instead of a taper tap....

[slim72914]

NO NOT YANK it out! you should be able to turn it out like you would a bolt. if you can get needle nose on it some how maybe bend the 1st thread out on the helicoil. if you just yank it out you will have to retap the threads for sure.

[HAM Inc]

Thanks Dr. Evil. I'm happy to be of service! I've been reading your tranny rebuild tips lately very informative!
Zach you want the 15mm insert. If you pull the old wire out slowly with a twisting motion it will come out with minimal if any dmage to the threads.
Remember that the reason Zach needs a tap is to clean up the existing oversize threads and the tap then serves as a pilot for the counterbore operation. I suppose a plug style 16mm x 1.25 tap would work for the operation if the shank is the same size as the Time-Sert tool. But I'll bet a dollar the the Time-Sert tap will be easier to find and cheaper than a 16 x 1.25 plug tap.
For those of you on the West coast Pendergrass Tool is a Time-Sert rep in Somis, CA . Jim Pendergrass is a nice guy and has lots of specialized automotive tools. 800 926 1847
Another thing you need to watch when performing the countersink operation is make sure you don't go any deeper than it takes to just clean-up the surface that the compression washer seals against. If you go to deep the plug will sit deeper in the head and the first thread will be exposed in the chamber. It will carbon up and the next time you change your plugs it will unwind the insert, making a mess. If you use the 17mm insert the first couple of threads on the insert (the ones that swedge into the head) will protrude into the chamber and the swedge will not work. Been there done that!
Make sure you use Never-Seaze on your plugs! It doesn't take much to make a + difference. To much can cause ignition problems.

[root]

Len, thanks for posting your expertise here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I am glad you are on our side (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

Zach, I have a lathe if you need to use it.

Len - your insight (experience) with rethreading will, I'm sure help
Zach get his head back right. Zach seems like a pretty smart fellow!
But, this Evil guy, I'm not so sure! What the hell would Zach need a lathe for? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Maybe Evil meant a milling machine! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Zach I have a mill if you need one! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[root]

I have installed a blue million TimeSerts and have noticed that the QC on them is not what it used to be. I have to chuck a lot in the lathe and file down the shoulder so it fits properly.
Good luck!

OH! I see why! Sorry D.E. - I'm an idiot..... Here' you on me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)

[VaccaRabite]

Sweet jesus!
$150 for the install tooling, $8 for the insert.

At least for the first place I called.

Hey Root, you got the stuff to install a timesert in your shop? If not, I think I'll farm this job out. If I had to do more then 1 I could justify the cost of the tooling, but for just one job, its probably cheaper to farm it - especially since it seems like I only need 1/2 of the tooling to do the job.

Zach

[root]

Sweet jesus!
$150 for the install tooling, $8 for the insert.

At least for the first place I called.

Hey Root, you got the stuff to install a timesert in your shop? If not, I think I'll farm this job out. If I had to do more then 1 I could justify the cost of the tooling, but for just one job, its probably cheaper to farm it - especially since it seems like I only need 1/2 of the tooling to do the job.

Zach

What size tool do you need?
If you can let me know the size or tool # I can prolly get one you can borrow from my machinist buddy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[tdgray]

Forgive my total ignorance... what is the difference between a timecert and a helicoil.

You may throw the rocks now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[VaccaRabite]

Forgive my total ignorance... what is the difference between a timecert and a helicoil.

You may throw the rocks now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

No problem.

A helicoil is a coil of wire (think a tubular spring) that threads into the socket, giving the bolt or spark plug something to thread into. They are great for things that don't get removed all that often, like head studs and the like. With spark plugs, they tend to start coming apart after a while.

A time cert is a solid steel socket that replaces the old threads. They last a lot longer then coils, as they are solid.

To sum up. Timeserts are solid metal. Helicoils are wire.

Zach

[VaccaRabite]

What size tool do you need?
If you can let me know the size or tool # I can prolly get one you can borrow from my machinist buddy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Honestly, I don't know. I can give you the part numbers for the install tooling, but I don't know what that includes. I bet Crusty or Len knows, though.

Here is what the website says (part number is 4412):
4412 NOTES:

M14x1.25 spark plug repair short tooling:
Normally used on vehicles that the spark plug is clearly visible,
or heads that have the spark plug near the surface.
Other examples would be motorcycles, lawn mowers and many
out board motors. These applications would not require long reach tools.
The 4412 kit is used for washer seat as well as tapered seat applications.
The installation is exactly the same for taper seat or washer seat you only
need the appropriate length/style of insert.

(IMG:http://www.timesert.com/images/sparkplug/image003.jpg)

Zach

[GS Guy]

Zach,
Be sure to contact Timesert directly before you buy! When I was looking for some timesert kits, the few places that had them "on line" wanted outrageous prices - and they differed widely in cost on top of that! While searching, came across a thread that talked about buying directly from Timesert. Whadda ya know - they had the best prices of anybody (by a wide margin) of anywhere else I found that sold them! Call or email them for a price list.
All I could think of was (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) at the mark-up of the other places!
Jeff

[Dr Evil]

Zach,
Check with the old guys you bought your windshield from. Most air cooled VW places or parts places for such have the set and will let you use them. Sean_V8_914 did this with my old TIV.

[VaccaRabite]

Zach,
Check with the old guys you bought your windshield from. Most air cooled VW places or parts places for such have the set and will let you use them. Sean_V8_914 did this with my old TIV.

Been meaning to call them, but have been so busy at work that it keeps slipping my mind.

Can't do it tomorrow - booked all damn day. Maybe Friday.

What about your local parts dude?

Zach

[Dr Evil]

Nope, he is strictly salvage parts, not service. Dont be in a hurry. If you need another head, I can help you there.