What constitutes "restoration"?, Looks like the PCR's will put me in resto class next year Options

[Pat Garvey]

I would hardly call my '72 914 "restored".

Yes, most of the exterior panels were repainted - in 1979!

But, the PCR gurus tell me it's "restored". One says if it was repainted anywhere, it's restored. Another says "if 30% of the panels were repainted, it's restored". I just love this degree of decisiveness!

So, here's what was repainted - all exterior panels, except the engine lid (which was used to match the degree of orange peel). No, the engine bay was not painted, nor the undersides of the lids, nor any of the belly parts or trunks. Nor were the door jambs. The repaint was to original specs by a Mercedes shop in Cincinnati. In '79 they wanted no part of the car, but owed a favor to a buddy of mine. Did a wonderful job!

Beyond that, I've maintained the rest of the finishes of the car. Yep, I've replaced a bunch of parts through the years that needed it - I still call this maintenance. I've always used factory parts to maintain the car. I have a stockpile of factory parts to use as the years go buy, but they are maintenance parts.

So, instead of a black and white poll - tell me your thoughts on whether this car is resored or preserved. It'll help me make a decision in January.

All questions are considered fair, and will be answered. All comments are considered fair - I will accept all (except tire questions/comments).

Let's hear it!
Pat

ps: If you want pics, fine.

[Beamer13]

To me, I would consider this preserved. You have stated in other threads that you are the original owner, you have done things to maintain the integrity of your baby, you have not purchased a vehicle that is in need of repair. PRESERVED not restored. IMHO

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

A restoration implies a degree of degradation and loss of component integrity that would require the rebuilding, reconstruction, and refabrication to restore the product to its original state and configuration. I would cite my own 914 as an example of a restoration. Although the engine/ transmission assembly is original and has never been apart, and virtually all other mechanical and electrical assemblies are original to the car as well, seven consecutive salt-saturated winters and a trip through the Atlantic Ocean surf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) had begun a metal deterioration cycle that I was no longer able to contain without a major infusion of cubic dollars to prevent the car from becoming a very nice parts donor. Not content to do just the pan and load and stress bearing pieces, the outer sheetmetal parts might just as well benefit from this rebuilding as well. And of course, while we're at it (we've all heard that before), let's do the front and rear compartments, straighten the kink in the f. bumper, pull the gas tank and redo the cowl, and on and on and on....

Pat's car, on the other hand, as never "degraded". The only real part, if I can even use that term in this application, that has been replaced other than maintenance items (i.e. muffler, pads, tune-up miscellania, battery, etc.) is the paint that he has redone almost 30 years ago. In the context of this car, which is 35 years old, a "repaint" affected that long ago, done to a car still owned by the original purchaser, would constitute reasonable maintenance. Yes, I'm fully aware that there are 914s out there still wearing their original paint application, so let those cars and Pat's be judged as preserved. And if Pat loses points for a non -original paint finish, that's the choice I suppose he can live with. In summary, I'd consider Pat's '72/4 to be very well preserved and not restored, as is the case with my 914.

Paul

[davep]

I'd have to agree that it is preserved and not a restoration. I think that any paint job that is 15 years old or over should not be classed as a restoration. Proving that is another thing. Proving that the car has original paint would also be difficult.

[Scott S]

It is absolutely restored.
Pat, you have stated on many occasions how the true concour elite are the PCA crowd. If this is the case, you know your car should be listed under restored. You drove it, you created wear, you repaired it. Your car is a 72 that was repainted in 79. It is no different than a 2000 996 that was repainted in 2007.

My brother and Pop flew out to look at this car last month:

http://autocollections.com/index.cfm?key=3...ry&cartable

Even though the motor we just built for the 140 is by far prettier, and I am sure our paint is better, (heck, look at the door fit) this car deserves a higher status as it is truly an untouched, original (as it left the factory) car. the only thing not original in this car is the gas, oil, brake fluid and antifreeze. it is perfect.

[TJB/914]

To me, I would consider this preserved. You have stated in other threads that you are the original owner, you have done things to maintain the integrity of your baby, you have not purchased a vehicle that is in need of repair. PRESERVED not restored. IMHO

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Tom

[JeffBowlsby]

It seems there are different interpretations of what 'original' and 'restored' means and the difference can be a fuzzy to some. What part of 'original' is so hard to understand? 'Its only original once' is one standard we hear alot how can that be confusing?

What surprises me regularly, is finding a car owner that is exhuberant in their description about how exceptionally 'original' 'everything' is on their car, then after that point is driven home, an honest owner will point out offhandedly that the car has been reupholstered or repainted...to match the original of course...but how can something be 'replaced' and 'original' at the same time? It cannot of course. It is what it is, and there is no shame in that.

Nothing at all wrong with an exceptionally well-maintained car, maintained to original specs, using NOS replacements, in fact I think a slightly worn car shows character and the owners passion of enjoying it more than if it were on the showroom floor, as long as the wear is not out of control.

Its just not original if its not original.

[Racer]

Sounds restored to me. Like Jeff says, a car is only original once. To me, an exterior repaint, even in original color, is a restoration and not a preservation.

There has been a huge explosion lately in Big Money cars about "preserve vs restore". Road and Track had a recent article about this very topic. I had opportunity to attend a Miles Collier presentation on a cars "provenance". At some point, a car is worth preserving. You will never again see a paints' original patina, or leather scuff marks on seats, once a car is "restored". I believe in the R&T article, which talked to several world class "shops" and "people in the know" that once you get to about 30% or a car needing reconditioning, the arguement to restore vs preserve becomes more poignant.

All too often are "original" cars tauted, only to learn, yeah, repainted, reupholstered, rebuilt engine (with things like MSD, Mallory, Permatune, Carbs, color changes, bigger brakes, sways etc) etc being used rather than true NOS parts. As these cars gets older, it only gets harder to maintain originality and drivability in one swoop. Look at 356s. Heck, I think if you found a dozen, true "original, unrestored" cars that were still drivable you would be lucky.

[Pat Garvey]

Hmmm...

I can understand both points of view here, and upon contemplating the issue (as well as the PCR's) pretty much feel now that my 914 should probably be considered "restored".

I neglected to consider that my engine tin has been redone (hence no mystery stamp), as well as J-tubes, brake backing plates and dozens of fasteners and latches that were replated 30 years ago. Every rubber piece (with the exception of the seals on the steering cover) have been replaced - some 3 times. But I consider this routine maintenance.

So, yeah, I think I'm getting warm & fuzzy about the term "restored". Besides, I've given up fighting city hall (PCR Committee). Just wish I'd repainted my engine compartment when the body was repainted (motor was already out) - it's pretty decent, but shows its originality.

I've put so much time & effort into the underside, that I want it judged & that pretty much nails me into Resoration also. We'll see how it goes.
Pat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Pat Garvey]

an exterior repaint, even in original color, is a restoration and not a preservation

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) That's the plain and simple point that got me.

Now with the engine tin, plating etc., it's a no brainer.

Now... about those tires (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

Yeah, the tires ARE the MAJOR issue to me.

Someone convince me that antiquated tread patterns & materials, at a HUGE price, make sense. PLEASE?

[tod914]

Beautiful car Pat, I would considered it restored being its been repainted at some point in time. As stated, only original once. Replacing aged components with NOS items to me would be acceptable like mufflers, hoses, etc. etc. but I'm certianly no authority on this. Doesn't matter what class you enter it in, as long your enjoying your hobby and haveing fun is the main thing. Which is exactly what you seem to be doing. You would think the guidelines would be standardized throughout the PCA. But it seems to vary from zone to zone and chaphter to chaphter.

[Pat Garvey]

Beautiful car Pat, I would considered it restored being its been repainted at some point in time. As stated, only original once. Replacing aged components with NOS items to me would be acceptable like mufflers, hoses, etc. etc. but I'm certianly no authority on this. Doesn't matter what class you enter it in, as long your enjoying your hobby and haveing fun is the main thing. Which is exactly what you seem to be doing. You would think the guidelines would be standardized throughout the PCA. But it seems to vary from zone to zone and chaphter to chaphter.

Yeah, there's quite a bit of difference, particularly at the regional level. But, that's OK with me. Playing the concours thing at a regional level should be more directed towards getting people to participate & try something new. At the national (and I believe the zone level also, but that's just me) it is hardcore, and should be. Yes, attracting participation is important, but at that level you're attempting to have your Porsche judged to be one of the very best. The judges go full tilt to do thier job. The participant should do likewise.

Lots of people use the Parade concours as a resume piece to sell thier car. Advertising your 914 (or, whatever model) as participating in the concours doesn't do much for its value. If you can advertise that you placed well, or won - the car gains some intrinsic value. I think it also has added value if you've participated & placed well in regional events too, but it takes more than one favorable result.

But, nothing does to value as much as the term "original", when it truely is.

Back to the topic at hand - I'm OK with "restored", if for no other reason because I can my belly judged. Looks like the tire issue will continue too - asked the wife for a gift card from Coker Tire for Xmas. She said "what are we talking about - $500?". I said nevermind - some new underwear will be just fine.

Pat

[Matt Meyer]

Just for a point of reference-

I saw an interview with the owner of a pre-Model T "preservation class" unrestorated auto (I cannot remember the Make). They had lots of shots of the car too.

The car was almost never driven, because of the seat. The seat was beautifully worn, bud sadly cracked atoo. It had a large crack/tear across the driver side. The owner wouldn't replace the seat because then it became a restoration.

Oh and I seem to remember he said he had restorers who would fly in to see the seat so they could copy the leather treatment etc. as his was one of the very few origional seats left.

[Jasfsmith]

Back to the topic at hand - I'm OK with "restored", if for no other reason because I can my belly judged. Looks like the tire issue will continue too - asked the wife for a gift card from Coker Tire for Xmas. She said "what are we talking about - $500?". I said nevermind - some new underwear will be just fine.

Pat

Just so long as the underwear is vintage 165HR15. Four will be sufficient for the near future. Aye?

I guess I'll have to call Santa and make the case for the new underwear for you. When's the best time to call? <grin>

[Pat Garvey]

Back to the topic at hand - I'm OK with "restored", if for no other reason because I can my belly judged. Looks like the tire issue will continue too - asked the wife for a gift card from Coker Tire for Xmas. She said "what are we talking about - $500?". I said nevermind - some new underwear will be just fine.

Pat

Just so long as the underwear is vintage 165HR15. Four will be sufficient for the near future. Aye?

I guess I'll have to call Santa and make the case for the new underwear for you. When's the best time to call? <grin>

Well, see, the problem is that I am Santa. Whatever is spent, Santa has to pay for. And, Mrs. Santa is out of touch with the DEVIL OF TIRELAND - so she shouldn't even get close to the subject, or she will become knowledgeable and "shit a brick" about the cost for five tires. Better off letting Mrs. Santa get me underwear.

Pat

[Johny Blackstain]

Forgive my absense everyone, I've been out on the road working. Also got burned out w/ the internet in general. When it becomes a chore to check your mail every day it gets old, fast.

Anyway, I registered my LE for "restored", non touring concours today. Cost $190.00 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) including the hardbound regs. Now I have to finish putting my brakes on & cleaning up the underside. I'm w/ Pat in that I don't consider Knikki restored, just repainted & extremely well maintained, but you have to take what you can get.

I'll probably get knocked for my tires & battery but I have to try this concours nonsense at least once. Should be an interesting event in any case.

[dw914er]

at the classic car dealership, we usually thought that unless it was major amounts of work, the car was original.

i mean, paint jobs lasting over 35 years is pretty ridiculous.
i know my car, in the silver metallic, would never had lasted that long (silver fades way too fast to last that long) so the car has been painted 3 times now.

but other than an engine rebuild, and new tyres (i do have the original spare tyre though, but i think thats probably more bad than good), etc, it has never had a full overhaul, never been repainted except for the exterior, original interior, so i would not call it restored


i think there is a fine line between restored and unrestored. if a paint job makes your car restored, then you will be competing with cars that have been completely redone, every bolt cleaned, and in your state of originalness, it is hard to compete

(i know my cant, and it is still pretty 'clean' but not as clean as a good restoration)

i think paint job, or an engine rebuild, is just something called maintainence.


but if it 'restored' then it just means that you kept your car clean, and still used it.

a car is supposed to be driven after all



(but i have never competed in that, so idk how i would do, and my monza set up would probably not go over well, or the 80's radio)

[Johny Blackstain]

i think paint job, or an engine rebuild, is just something called maintainence.

I agree 100%. My car has been repainted & the engine has also been rebuilt, but all my body is original & my interior has never been molested. Both trunks and the engine compartment are also unmolested. The car was driven for 4 years & then sat in a garage for 23 yrs. Six years ago I took it to AA & had the work done. George does not consider my car restored either.

[dw914er]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

it is hard to keep a car untouched for 35 years (if there was multiple owners, who knows whats happened)

hell, our car is 1 owner, and needed some new stuff (but 236,000 miles kinda forces that (1.7s have a general shelf life of 100k til a new rebuild anyways))


and even further, sh*t happens, its almost impossible to keep a car 100% original and still have it look halfway decent, and run decent


i think pat's car should stay in the unrestored car (though im sure in either class, it will do well because that car is still very clean, and well preserved)

[jonferns]

I would consider a restoration to be a complete rebuild of the car, having extensive work done to bring the car back, either through rust repair, or fixing body damage. Clearly Pat, your car has not needed either. I think that your car falls under the "very well preserved and maintained" category.