Exhaust stud install after installing TimeCert, WTF?!! Options

[rjames]

I tried installing another step stud which visually looks different in the non-threaded area between the two ends when comparing it to the one I got from Jake, which tells me that it most likely came from a different manufacturer.

It did screw in about 4 more threads than the one I got from Jake did, but still won't thread into the insert completely, and leaves about 7 threads exposed.

I'm perplexed as the TimeCert driver that seats the insert is clearly marked 9mm x 1.25, and can easily be screwed in completely by hand, yet the 2 studs I have that are supposedly 9mm x 1.25 as well can not be screwed in further than 1/2 way. Someone is lying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Not sure how tight the tolerences are on the insert, but clearly the studs do differ (even if just by a small amount).

Trying to find locally a 9mm x 1.125 bold to test the insert, or the appropriate nut to test the stud (or chase the threads) is proving to be impossible, although I have one more hardware shop to try on my way home from work today.

[VaccaRabite]

Since you have a good stud for testing, try threading a 9X1.125 nut on it and see what the results are.

Or get a 9x1.125 bolt from your local hardware store and try threading that into the cert. Infact, if the cert is not yet installed, take it with you to the store and you won't even have to buy the test bolt.

Test both, and find out which end is wrong.

Also, if you have a 9x1.125 thread die, run the stud through that just clean up the threads. It can't hurt.

Zach

[Jake Raby]

We have those studs made so the manufacturers are certainly different..
It sounds like the time sert is installed into a tapped hole that is tapered and gets smaller the deeper it goes into the head. Did you use the time sert tap or just a regular tap?

[rjames]

We have those studs made so the manufacturers are certainly different..
It sounds like the time sert is installed into a tapped hole that is tapered and gets smaller the deeper it goes into the head. Did you use the time sert tap or just a regular tap?

I used the 9mm x 1.25 time sert kit, whch includes their drill (to drill out the old 8mm threads), their tap, and their driver which is used to seat the insert. The driver is clearly marked 9 x 1.25, which after seating the insert now threads in by hand. So either their insert is not truly 9 x 1.25, or the studs I have are slighly larger than 9 x 1.25. The threads spacing on the studs line up exactly with the threads on the insert driver, which tells me it's not the thread spacing, but the diameters that are different, even if only slightly.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm trying to hunt down a 9mm x 1.25 nut to test out the stud, and a 9 mm x 1.25 bolt to test out the instert. At the very least if I could find the right nut I could try and chase the threads on one of the studs. However, these sizes seem to be particular to engine related stuff as I'm having a hard time finding them.

[KELTY360]

Trying to find locally a 9mm x 1.125 bold to test the insert, or the appropriate nut to test the stud (or chase the threads) is proving to be impossible, although I have one more hardware shop to try on my way home from work today.

Have you tried Tacoma Screw Products for the bolt you need?

[davep]

7mm fasteners are rare
9mm fasteners are extremely rare, and probably custom only
so let your fingers do the searching

[rjames]

7mm fasteners are rare
9mm fasteners are extremely rare, and probably custom only
so let your fingers do the searching

great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Have you tried Tacoma Screw Products for the bolt you need?

I've called and left a message with them and am awaiting a return call.

And here I thought tapping the new threads and installing the Timesert was going to be the hardest part of this whole process!

[Phoenix-MN]

7mm fasteners are rare
9mm fasteners are extremely rare, and probably custom only
so let your fingers do the searching

great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Have you tried Tacoma Screw Products for the bolt you need?

I've called and left a message with them and am awaiting a return call.

And here I thought tapping the new threads and installing the Timesert was going to be the hardest part of this whole process!

Yup, it's always the easy stuff that comes back to bite you. I needed a 9mm bolt for a A-Caliper but could not find one. You can buy 9mm tap and dies all over the place but no one has nuts and bolts. My solution - turn down a 10mm bolt to 9mm and ran a 9mm die over it.

[rjames]

7mm fasteners are rare
9mm fasteners are extremely rare, and probably custom only
so let your fingers do the searching

great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Have you tried Tacoma Screw Products for the bolt you need?

I've called and left a message with them and am awaiting a return call.

And here I thought tapping the new threads and installing the Timesert was going to be the hardest part of this whole process!

Yup, it's always the easy stuff that comes back to bite you. I needed a 9mm bolt for a A-Caliper but could not find one. You can buy 9mm tap and dies all over the place but no one has nuts and bolts. My solution - turn down a 10mm bolt to 9mm and ran a 9mm die over it.

Send me that bolt! Just kidding! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Looks like that's the direction I'll be heading. Just heard back from Tacoma Screw and found out that what I'm looking for is a big rarity and they don't have it. Looks like I'll be buying a die set now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Phoenix-MN]

If you have a 911 front A-Caliper laying around those have 9mm Ribe bolts and a 9mm nut holding the halves together.

[davep]

Trust ATE to use unobtainable hardware for bolting the caliper halves together. Even Ribe will not sell that hardware to you unless you are ATE. BTDT.

[Jake Raby]

Just let me send you a replacement!

[rjames]

Just let me send you a replacement!

The fact that I have 3 9mm step studs, from two different manufacturers and neither of them fit makes me think that finding a perfect 9mm stud isn't possible.

However, I'm open to receiving another one to try, Jake- thanks.
I couldn't PM you through this site, I sent an email to parts@aircooled technology.com
Let me know if that isn't the right contact route.

Thanks!

[jk76.914]

It leaves about 6 threads exposed, eh? If you look in from the other end, how close is it from bottoming out? The way the time certs lock is the ID tapers slightly in at that bottom, so when you keep screwing after you feel resistance, it expands the OD and locks it in place. If you're within a few threads of the bottom, you may just be starting into the portion where the resistance starts, and the insert expands. See pic-



Nother question- how did the threads look in the aluminum? They're either fine, or ruined from turning the time cert after its flange was seated.

Jim

[jk76.914]

It leaves about 6 threads exposed, eh? If you look in from the other end, how close is it from bottoming out? The way the time certs lock is the ID tapers slightly in at that bottom, so when you keep screwing after you feel resistance, it expands the OD and locks it in place. If you're within a few threads of the bottom, you may just be starting into the portion where the resistance starts, and the insert expands. See pic-



Nother question- how did the threads look in the aluminum? They're either fine, or ruined from turning the time cert after its flange was seated.

Jim

Hmmm. I just looked at your original pic. Looks like the stud stuck about where the threads taper down at the lock point. Key question is how the aluminum threads look in the head. You may have stopped turning when the install tool got to the taper, rather than continuing until the Sert expanded and locked itself into the head. Sort of maybe sounds like that could have happenned???



If I count threads on the bare stud and on the OD of the Sert, looks like its screwed in to about 2 or 3 threads shy of the end. That could very well mean that the tool hadn't cold formed the end yet and locked it to the head. The fact that the Sert unscrewed so easily also suggests that it hadn't locked yet.

[rjames]

It leaves about 6 threads exposed, eh? If you look in from the other end, how close is it from bottoming out? The way the time certs lock is the ID tapers slightly in at that bottom, so when you keep screwing after you feel resistance, it expands the OD and locks it in place. If you're within a few threads of the bottom, you may just be starting into the portion where the resistance starts, and the insert expands.

Nope, the driver tool after breaking free fully went through the entire timecert and to the end of the hole in the case.

Nother question- how did the threads look in the aluminum? They're either fine, or ruined from turning the time cert after its flange was seated.

Threads looked fine to me in the aluminum. No metal shavings came out with the insert, and the fact that the 2nd insert I installed using the driver tool seemed to seat just fine (driver tool 'broke free' and now can be screwed in to the full length of the hole easily) makes me think the threads are ok.

Hmmm. I just looked at your original pic. Looks like the stud stuck about where the threads taper down at the lock point. Key question is how the aluminum threads look in the head. You may have stopped turning when the install tool got to the taper, rather than continuing until the Sert expanded and locked itself into the head. Sort of maybe sounds like that could have happenned???

If this is true than it means that the driver tool is not cut correctly for the insert or both inserts are faulty, because the driver did break free and screws all the way through the insert (on both the insert that I removed and the one that is currently installed.

If I count threads on the bare stud and on the OD of the Sert, looks like its screwed in to about 2 or 3 threads shy of the end. That could very well mean that the tool hadn't cold formed the end yet and locked it to the head. The fact that the Sert unscrewed so easily also suggests that it hadn't locked yet.

It didn't unscrew that easily, I just didn't realize that the stud was supposed to screw in easily, and therefore I applied enough torque on it to get it stuck in the insert, so when I went to unscrew the stud (using vicegrips) it unscrewed the insert too. Even after getting both pieces out I had to stick the stud in a vice and use vicegrips on the insert to remove it from the stud.

As an experiment I tried screwing the insert the rest of the way onto the stud using a vice and vicegrips, and I couldn't get it on the stud much further than what you see in the pick. After removing the used insert from the stud, I can screw the insert all the way down the length of the timecert driver with no problem, which tells me that it was 'expanded' by the driver.

This leaves only a couple of conclusions: either the stud isn't 9mm for its entire length, the stud threads are the wrong size (not 1.25), or the timecert & timecert driver aren't exactly 9mm ID. Regardless of the dimensions however, the studs I have and the timcert/timecert driver don't match each other.

With another stud I found locally, I was able to get the insert screwed on several threads farther than the original stud I had just using my fingers, or if I force it I can get it on the rest of the way, but it takes a vice & vice grips to do so. So the two studs I have are different dimensions, and neither of them match the insert.

One additional note, I can insert the stud through the bottom end of the insert for a few threads, which tells me that things are getting hung up at the same place in the insert (somewhere near the middle) and at the same place on the stud (several threads down).

I started wondering if the threads on the stud weren't 1.25, but they seem to match up with the threads on the driver tool.
If I get another stud from Jake and run into the same issue (which is what I'm expecting will happen) I'm thinking the next step will be to try and recut the threads of the stud to 9mm. Assuming that 9mm x 1.25 dies are easy to find and also assuming that the insert matches those dimensions accurately.

ACK!

[jk76.914]

Wow. Well, you've done anything I can think of and more. Sounds like the original installation was perfect. Those also sound like the correct next steps. I found a 9mm x 1.25 tap at my local Tru-Value hardware store. Not sure about a die, but if Tru-Value has the tap, then they may have a die too.

Also, if this is a winter project and you can put it on ice for a couple of weeks, I'm glad to pick up a stud at BelMetric when I go up. I'm waiting to get a new outer CV joint for my Audi in the mail, and then I need to go up and get boot strap-clamps and crimping tool from it. That's my hold up. It's about an hour round trip. They also have loose Serts (without the tools). There is a longer one available in case your aluminum threads are damaged, though it sounds like your installation was fine.

Good luck,
Jim

[rjames]

Wow. Well, you've done anything I can think of and more. Sounds like the original installation was perfect. Those also sound like the correct next steps. I found a 9mm x 1.25 tap at my local Tru-Value hardware store. Not sure about a die, but if Tru-Value has the tap, then they may have a die too.

Also, if this is a winter project and you can put it on ice for a couple of weeks, I'm glad to pick up a stud at BelMetric when I go up. I'm waiting to get a new outer CV joint for my Audi in the mail, and then I need to go up and get boot strap-clamps and crimping tool from it. That's my hold up. It's about an hour round trip. They also have loose Serts (without the tools). There is a longer one available in case your aluminum threads are damaged, though it sounds like your installation was fine.

Good luck,
Jim

Jim, I really appreciate the help on all this, thank you. I've given up on being in a hurry to get this finished, just want it done right. There's a True Value hardware within 30 minutes of my place, so I'll try them for a die. I'm awaiting to hear back from Jake regarding another stud, but may take you up on your offer to pick up an additional insert & stud just in case. I'll keep you posted, and let me know if you if you go to Bell before I get back to you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[rjames]

Well, the exhaust stud saga is going better now.
To bring anyone interested up to speed:

After stripping out an exhaust stud, I installed a timecert that would
take a 9x1.25 step stud.
Ordered said stud from the Type IV store and they didn't fit the insert.
Bought a step stud from a local type IV engine rebuilder and that one didn't fit either.
Ordered a replacement from the TYPE IV store, and SUCCESS! It fit! It also looks complete different from the other studs that didn't fit- I'll post pics tomorrow.
(BTW, the TYPE IV store has awesome customer service.)

Here's my Q:
I have only tightened the new exhaust stud nuts to 14 foot pounds. I was afraid to go any farther now that I know how easily they can be stripped out. I also know that spec is 18 pounds. The question is, should I get back under there and tighten them to spec? Do I have to? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[davep]

You may want to wait until you have heat cycled it a few times. (a couple of short drives) I typically would mount all the parts loosely first, getting every part aligned nicely ( HX's, muffler and hanger). Then I go around tightening things up snug, and finally a round of torquing to spec. If you tighten the HX's before mounting the muffler, then chances are it will not mate up. After some heat cycling you will find most fasteners will loosen up. So you have to back anyways to finish up the job.