Dumping Hydro lifters, Jake, Capt ect advice please Options

[Ferg]

I have the 00-422 performance hydro Web camshaft in my 74. 2.0 along with Hydro lifters.

It's been the one part of the car, I've not been happy with, and lately they have been bleeding down fast (one week) and taking a while to quiet down.

I just got off the phone with webcam and the nice woman said; that I COULD go back to solid lifters and rods no problem without changing the cam.

The motor only has about 3k on it since a complete build.

I just want to double check with some of the gurus before I go ahead and order solid lifters and rods ect.

Jake, Capt or others, is this a good idea, assuming I don't see anything bad on the cam when it's apart?

Any performance issues, using that cam with solids?

Ferg (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm a picture whore (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[blitZ]

Dunno, about your lifter issue, but that's a sweet looking car.

[Jake Raby]

Toss the cam, toss the lifters. Start over.


It's been over a decade since I used a single hydro lifter.

Problems in a box- thats how I refer to them.

read this presentation.

http://rdtlabs.com/Presentations/t4engcam.pps

A camshaft and lifter set up are matched units as soon as they are broken in toegether.
I'd never give someone that recommendation, but we build engines and see what happens when this is done. Cam grinders don't do this..

A hydro cam profile being used with solid lifters still has the same crappy late valve events as it did with hydros, just not quite as delayed.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Jan 9 2008, 03:56 PM

[Cap'n Krusty]

Change the cam. Web Cam makes nice stuff, but they're salesmen. The sales pitch doesn't match the reality. The Cap'n

[Ferg]

Toss the cam, toss the lifters. Start over.


It's been over a decade since I used a single hydro lifter.

Problems in a box- thats how I refer to them.

read this presentation.

http://rdtlabs.com/Presentations/t4engcam.pps

A camshaft and lifter set up are matched units as soon as they are broken in toegether.
I'd never give someone that recommendation, but we build engines and see what happens when this is done. Cam grinders don't do this..

A hydro cam profile being used with solid lifters still has the same crappy late valve events as it did with hydros, just not quite as delayed.

I should have stated that splitting the case for a new cam is not a option. I would love to start over, but it's not gonna happen. I'm simply looking to do the best I can with what I have.

I see two options for myself.

1. rebuild/clean the hydros and put them back in.

2. toss them and use solid lifters and rods with my hydro webcam.

I would like the think option two is the better option, but I don't know for sure...

here are the stats on my specific cam.

lift .430
duration 265
duration at .5 degrees 234

[Brando]

If splitting the case is not an option, it may be a costly change-over to solid lifters.

1) as jake mentioned the cam and lifters wear together as a set. You'll be attempting to break in new lifters on a worn cam. Also jake mentioned the crappy valve events will stick around - you'll see essentially no benefit to switching at this point.

2) To change over to solid you'll need the lifters and cut-to-length pushrods to get your geometry correct.

3) it may be better to drop-and-swap the engine for either a rebuilt 2.0 or start acquiring parts to rebuild another 2.0 to swap in.

[byndbad914]

Ferg, I don't think I would mess with new lifters/old cam. As others have mentioned, you can wipe the cam out. My buddy had a pretty new cam in his Chevy (obviously this is now an apples to oranges comparison) and wanted to change the lifters.. I said don't do it. It lasted 5 minutes before wiping every lobe out and taking all the bearings in the motor with it.

'Course you can flatten a Chevy cam just looking at it wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) ) but given what Jake mentions, I bet the problem exists with VWs too.

[scotty b]

Toss the cam, toss the lifters. Start over.


It's been over a decade since I used a single hydro lifter.

Problems in a box- thats how I refer to them.

read this presentation.

http://rdtlabs.com/Presentations/t4engcam.pps

A camshaft and lifter set up are matched units as soon as they are broken in toegether.
I'd never give someone that recommendation, but we build engines and see what happens when this is done. Cam grinders don't do this..

A hydro cam profile being used with solid lifters still has the same crappy late valve events as it did with hydros, just not quite as delayed.

I should have stated that splitting the case for a new cam is not a option. I would love to start over, but it's not gonna happen. I'm simply looking to do the best I can with what I have.

I see two options for myself.

1. rebuild/clean the hydros and put them back in.

2. toss them and use solid lifters and rods with my hydro webcam.

I would like the think option two is the better option, but I don't know for sure...

here are the stats on my specific cam.

lift .430
duration 265
duration at .5 degrees 234

You're going to have to split the case to change over to solid lifters anyway......so why not drop the extrra $80.00 (?) and do it right?

[McMark]

Run the 'old' hydro lifters until you can split the case. If you choose to throw new lifters in (hydro or solid), don't be surprised if you end up having to split the case anyway because the cam died.

[Jake Raby]

Trying to avoid an issue is the first way to guarantee that you'll have an issue.

To makeing compromise creates failure.

[Ferg]

Thanks for all the advice, I can always count on good info here.

I want to make it clear, I'm not trying to half ass things, or looking for a easy way out, it's not what i'm about.

I would love to tear it apart (actually I would love to do it myself and learn) but time, family and money prevent it, car is pretty far back on my priority list lately.

It sounds like I will be rebuilding my current hydro's and putting them back in. I realize (did when I bought the car) that hydro's are not optimal, but seems like my best option for now.

Ferg

[Jake Raby]

What oil pump and oil are you running??? This is critical to a hydro engine.

[sww914]

You could try some of this Rislone- http://www.barsproducts.com/100QR.htm
I put it in my 454 with a couple of noisy lifters for about 1000 miles. they had been getting noisier for 20,000 miles, and they've been quiet ever since, about 15,000 miles. I'm not a big fan of engine rebuild in a can type products and I don't blame anyone who scoffs at this idea, but in your case it won't make anything worse and it's cheaper than splitting the case. If it doesn't work, you're out 8 bucks.

[Ferg]

What oil pump and oil are you running??? This is critical to a hydro engine.

I'm not sure the brand, I have a Invoice from performance products that shows a HD Oil Pump was bought and the catalog number was OP-5144.

Right now I run 20-50 Castrol, but will be changing to brad penn this weekend.

[Jake Raby]

Sounds like a Melling pump.... that may be the problem.

[Brando]

You're going to have to split the case to change over to solid lifters anyway......so why not drop the extrra $80.00 (?) and do it right?

Scotty, ya don't have to split the case to pull lifters. They slide in and out of the bores with some lube. Now, if you've got some funky lifters with a big foot on them I could see installation in the case halves before assembly necessary. Also they might get stuck if they're mangled, or if the bores are fucked. But with stock and hydros that replace stock lifters, they slide in and out. I've had it happen most times on teardowns as I spin the engine over on the stand.

[SGB]

That Brad Penn oil will have you saying "that was easy".
I have the dreaded hydro cam and lifters. Put 'em in in 1990. When mine get noisy it is just a sign that that the oil is used up. That used to be castrol. When I went to Penn, I heard all kinds of sounds I had never heard before- because the were masked by the lifter noise. The noises I hear now are a whirring machinery in action noise. Change that oil! Tell us what happens.

[SLITS]

I disagree with the experts but then my experience may be different than yours.

[orange914]

Sounds like a Melling pump.... that may be the problem.

what kind of problems are related to mellingpumps?...

mike