Are We Stifling Creativity? Options

[McMark]

This forum is a great place to share ideas and get some feedback. Over the years we have built up a broad base of 'common knowledge'. The problem with common knowledge is that it can stifle creativity. For example, we just had a thread about large bore four cylinder motors, and it immediately received the standard response (myself included). It was also suggested that the place to talk about new and experimental ideas for these motors is another site.

I'm just worried that people are afraid to post about their new ideas, for fear of being told why it won't work, why they should have done something else, etc. In fact I know of one person who sent out a really cool email about some 914 work he did, but didn't post it here for exactly the reason above.

What's the 914World like from your perspective?

[Mark Henry]

Paul is one of the nicest and smartest guys out there. His stuff has only been shown once and he got bashed for doing it. Yes it's radical, Paul is a full blown custom guy, doesn't matter what he owns it still would be over the top custom. There are many things he does that could easily be adapted to the "norm" but he doesn't post for fear of being bashed.

paul who? what? ury? you're kidding, right?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Andy

Turbo Paul (turbo914v8)...post right above mine.

[racerx9146]

I can comment that I rarely post due to the responses I see people get. Its a free world and people are entitled to do/say their own thing. However I think we all have a vested interest in seeing our little community stay vibrant and active. To accomplish that you need more pro than con. In other words we need to remember to keep the criticisms constructive.

I love reading this forum but I wish some people could be a little more "positive" in their comments. In the real world (swap meets, PCA events and other non-internet gatherings) 914 fans i talk to sometimes grimace when I mention 914world or 914 club. I think I know why...

John Daron

[marks914]

Just rememeber that you are building your car for you, not the guy in his underwear on the board with his rusted in half car sitting behind the barn.

Mark

[Jake Raby]

OK... Here is my dollars worth.

I'll limit my post to the "MassIVe engine, because I could give a damn less about complaining about what anyone does with any other aspect of their car.

When I started my promotion of the TIV engine it was 1997. The engine was an ugly duckling and while some shops (like FAT Performance) had been able to understand and manipulate the engine most others hadn't. The engine was filled with mystery and because of that it was impossible for a novice to correctly configure one that wasn't a hot running, oil leaking, valve seat dropping pig.

At that point I saw huge potential in the engine as I had good luck with them in the past and knew that with modern communication (internet) that the engines could be revitalized and info shared that would make them what they hadn't been for the past 30 years.

The Type 1 and 911 engines were mega successful because there was tons of reference for builders and the engine was more understood because more people had manipulated it. I wanted that for the Type 4 and from that point forward I have been working to reduce the guesswork associated with the manipulation of the Type 4 engine and working to get it used in more vehicles.

Creativity:
Its expensive and the TIV is absolutely intolerant to half assed efforts. If you give this engine a chance it will kick you in the balls until you puke and it will do it over and over again! Part of what I have done may have hurt creativity, but that has been necessary to get the engine where it is today, somewhere it has never been before.

The Type 4 is it's own beast. 911, TI and Chevy knowledge won't do it's creators any good at all. The worst efforts I have seen with this engine have come from those treating the engine "like" something else. Many say "Its just an engine", those people make the mistakes and don't do their homework. They lose their ass when it blows up and teaches them who the boss really is. I see this weekly!

So in a way this thread make me very happy because I feel that a bit of creativity stifling has been necessary to get a solid foundation set for the engine and show what it is capable of with the proper approach and preparation.

That being said I have always assumed the role of the experimental guinea pig. I have spent the money and taken the time to produce insane projects that have changed the minds of many and has proven to others that this engine can be used for extreme power, remain reliable and have decent longevity. I do not feel that EVERY enthusiast should have to assume a role such as mine, but they did prior to my efforts with this engine.

Ten years ago a post like this would not have existed and I would not be able to walk in on a Monday morning having just stomped the shit out of 28 Type 1 powered vehicles at the biggest aircooled HP event on the east coast with two TIV powered vehicles, walking away with near 200 RWHP N/A on 89 octane pump gas and 206 lb/ft of torque with ungodly fuel efficiency.

Now, that being said my video series will continue to help people create these engines in a proven manner and will help set foundations for "creativity" to enter back into the world of the "Big 4"...

BUT the need for super creativity is reduced when you can bolt together a 200HP engine and not have to guess about anything, not timing, not jetting and not exhaust... (and have a video walk you through the whole experience step by step)

Ten years ago that was a pipe dream. I have had to piss off lots of people to make it a successful effort and I will continue to push the limits and break hearts.

Years ago when I started with the TIV I heard a different set of gripes about a lack of performance parts, no HP and that they blew up all the time.. Today I am getting criticized for making things too standardized and straight forward and thats the biggest compliment I have had in a long, long time.

In closing I will say that in times past I have shared more information about how and why we do things. I have had this information used against me by an unscrupulous person and since that day I haven't shared nearly as much as I once did. This info cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to acquire and years of my life to apply. I will not give that to anyone and will quickly set you straight if you believe that I OWE it to YOU.

[twoskinuts]

Paul I used a quote from your PM to me to make a point that people are out there that don't post because of bashing. An maybe there would be less of us custom guys out there lurking if it wasn't going on & I didn't mention an names. I join here in 05 an lurked a long time before I post anything an when I posted my doors I kind of knew it was going to happen but it is discouraging.

[Rand]

Dan, I really just want to encourage you to ignore the bashers. This is a huge group of people. Please don't let those few discourage you! For every basher, there's a thousand of us who love what you're doing. And the kinds of things you are doing rank high on the cool scale. Please, for the rest of us, ignore the bashers and keep sharing!!!! Who cares what they think? More of us want to see what you do next!

[yenningComity]

I say this site as well as another similar (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) site do. Jake is a good guy, and you have to respect what he does. I have yet to see him say an idea cannot be done unless he has a good reason why not. There are more than a few members on here and elsewhere in the 914 community that seem to take his word as gospel and bash anyone that do not follow his ideas.

I ran across XXXXX forum a month or two ago and discovered that people are using mercedes, chevy, ford, etc etc parts in type fours.... and actually make them work. I have yet to see someone post about even so much as trying something new with an engine off here in awhile. I know that when I have my car running and look to modify it, this will be the last place I dare talk about it.

[Jake Raby]

I have built engines with all those off the wall parts and know what tools and skills are needed to do so successfully. In times past, before there were actual performance parts for the TIV we HAD to use these parts to make big power and the hassles that people went through were huge and usually the engines were built with huge compromises that overcame their effectiveness.

I will not recommend or share information that will lead someone down a road to failure or hard ship. When these people do fail it really stifles the creativity and thats what gave this engine such a bad rap for so long.

[jimkelly]

it seems to me that it is an indisputable FACT that Mr. Raby is one of the most knowledgeable type4 engine builders/enhancers on our planet at this point in time - besides having a combustion-chamber-load of knowledge, he sells - as i understand it - in kit form - with guarentees - several reliable versions of type four engine kits - from mild to wild - as they say.

ayway - enough about the water cooled hater : )

who here runs a type4 that puts out more than 120hp - that did not refer to JR to achieve this accomplishment? I would like to hear all the stories.

thanks

jim

[SirAndy]

Just rememeber that you are building your car for you, not the guy in his underwear on the board with his rusted in half car sitting behind the barn.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) that pretty much sums it up ...

[JPB]

I have them Hot WV mags of Jake doing his thing, ya baby! As mentioned before, "Jakes engines are the cheapest way to go."

One who makes no mistake is one who doesn't learn and there is no greater failure than one who fails to try.


True creative people run against the grain and are not sidetracked from their vision. We didn't give them the recognition they needed so they just stopped posting do to a lack of positive attention or feedback. They will create somewhere else don't you worry.


I personaly thank all those who crapped on my ideas and hope the comments continue, good or bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) These blue nuts are for all those beeeehotches who can't take a freekin joke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[Brian Mifsud]

I've seen an engine builder who posts here completely "poo poo" ideas, only to see it surface in his offerings down the road.

He is here to make money. Period. He's not your buddy, and he's not here for "intellectual" pursuits.

My recommendation, is if you want to collaborate with somebody on this board, use the board to build a relationship, but do all the collaboration offline.

[Joe Bob]

I also called a poster that makes muffs. Sketched out an idea and sent him inquiries to make it...said it wouldn't work or he didn't wanna do it or something....weenie then starts making it and selling it on the assdragger board. I said put a cat where the middle muff is....can't do it....

Triad muffler can eat my shorts....I also still doan like PMS....what a perfect name for that idjut's company....

Anyways, got my new 74...check my build thread....will be buying and selling stuff.

[Rand]

Nice JPB. Makes me want to revise my last answer to something a little more harsh.

Why share if people are going to put down your hard work

F*ck the lame ass 'bashers!' Instead of retreating into non-post status, POST ALL THE MORE!!! It really does piss me off that some lame critics can actually stifle the artists who are ACTUALLY DOING STUFF. WTF? Why be weak? BUCK UP and grow some thick hide!!!! Stop hiding what you are doing out of fear of some critic! Sluff them off, share what you are DOING, and you just might be surprised at the support you will get around here!!! SHOW IT!

[/rant]

[dw914er]

i think it is time to move on


basically, here is my summary

lets keep the comments constructive, and if it isnt your style, then go on, its not my cup of tea, but....

also remember, some people here have done alot to thier cars, or to the 914s themselves (for instance, raby is right, the type 4 is a unique motor, so it is wise to figure out what other people have experienced, ect)


now, let us go back to giving new ideas, or support, or advice, and get back to our 914's


and for the over 21 crowd, or anyone with a friend over 21, lets get some (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)



anyways, happy motoring, and keep bringing on the new threads, or advice
(after all, we are all here for the 914)




cheers,

Ben Matlock

(914 nut, just like everyone else here)

[Rand]

i think it is time to move on
cheers,
Ben Matlock

Word.

(IMG:http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7403/matlockladiesmanex3.jpg)

[JPB]

Nice JPB. Makes me want to revise my last answer to something a little more harsh.

Why share if people are going to put down your hard work

F*ck the lame ass 'bashers!' Instead of retreating into non-post status, POST ALL THE MORE!!! It really does piss me off that some lame critics can actually stifle the artists who are ACTUALLY DOING STUFF. WTF? Why be weak? BUCK UP and grow some thick hide!!!! Stop hiding what you are doing out of fear of some critic! Sluff them off, share what you are DOING, and you just might be surprised at the support you will get around here!!! SHOW IT!

[/rant]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) YES YES YES!!!!! You are the CREATOR and the world is your URINAAAAAL!!! I am certain and will probably be backed that my ideas are by far inferior to yours any day!! Crap, I haven't even taken and engine appart yet!

Its a firght of the fittest out there and the question is, are YOU fit to fight?

Buuuuuuuuuurp (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)


By the way, Jake Raby is successful because he is a creative kick ass!!!

[dw914er]

when i got the battery for my car last time, the guy at autozone did not believe my name is ben matlock

(but hey, andy griffen as an old man still got the chicks at ben matlock, so i think that's a good sign)

lol

thats my meaningless, random experience with my name


(it is technically benjamin though)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[Chris Hamilton]

who here runs a type4 that puts out more than 120hp - that did not refer to JR to achieve this accomplishment? I would like to hear all the stories.

thanks

jim

I can't be the only one, surely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[r_towle]

Just rememeber that you are building your car for you, not the guy in his underwear on the board with his rusted in half car sitting behind the barn.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) that pretty much sums it up ...

First off, It happens to sit IN the barn...not behind it...

I think that I for one build my car for my own pleasure and my own creative experience. While this motor has been around for a long time, and there have been many current, past and future, board members that have built these motors, Jake stands out as the most memorable.

Lets try to remember a few things.
The 914/4 was raced during its first few years by several serious teams.
The motor has been stretch to its limits many times.
Germanlook comes to mind...
While all of that is true, Jake has managed to convince certain companies to step into this market not because he is a quiet guy...but cause he is Jake.
That just benefits all of us..all of us get access to cheaper parts for the motor.
Its supply and demand.

As far as creativity is concerned, I do miss the old days, but those days are gone, and those guys have stopped posting...oh well.

I have RL things to deal with...its spring and warm again...time to go build a motor that will make you puke...and make me smile alot...

Rich