 VW Type 1 into 914, What are your thoughts? |
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| DBCooper |
 Jul 4 2008, 08:19 PM
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#21
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14's in the 13's with ATTITUDE  Group: Members Posts: 3,079 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Dazed and Confused Member No.: 2,618 Region Association: Northern California  |
QUOTE(Paul Illick @ Jul 4 2008, 05:27 PM)  Oh no. "Aircooled Heaven", where you're in charge... Tell me it ain't so, Jake. We didn't think good things about that guy who thought you had a God complex.... now it turns out... oh my... QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 4 2008, 05:42 PM) The Owner is typically in charge, correct? I pay the taxes on that chunk of ground and sign the paychecks, so you bet I am in charge. .... now it turns out... oh my... that you BELIEVE it! Yesss... now things are becoming clear... ...so do you prefer that's spelled with a capital G? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) |
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 4 2008, 09:03 PM
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#22
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,398 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE ...so do you prefer that's spelled with a capital G? To smart asses like you, its Mr. Old age hasn't been kind to you, has it? |
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| DBCooper |
Jul 5 2008, 07:27 AM
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#23
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14's in the 13's with ATTITUDE Group: Members Posts: 3,079 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Dazed and Confused Member No.: 2,618 Region Association: Northern California |
Old enough to have seen it all, thank you, and no, that's not a bad thing. But those are your words Jake, not mine. I just pay attention.
So it's a capital "G" then? |
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| RJMII |
Jul 5 2008, 12:31 PM
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#24
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Jim McIntosh Group: Members Posts: 3,125 Joined: 11-September 07 From: Sandy, Utah Member No.: 8,112 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Paul Illick @ Jul 5 2008, 07:27 AM) So it's a capital "G" then? It's ALWAYS a capital "G". You wouldn't want us to spell it "texas", would you? or "tX". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) that would just look funny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Hmm... I think I figured out the real reason Jake likes the "GA" case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) oops, did I hijack a hijacking? So is the type 1 going to go into the 914? I'd like to see pictures, especially if Jake is involved in anyway... QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 4 2008, 02:11 PM) Do it... I can help you convert the clutch arrangement to function correctly. Let me drive it. I bet I can break it before I get off the road in front of the shop :-) How long is the road in front of the shop? I want to know how much space you're giving yourself to break it. |
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| grantsfo |
Jul 5 2008, 12:49 PM
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#25
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(dw914er @ Jul 4 2008, 04:20 PM) Ive also seen a 9 second fiat with a T4 Does that one get driven to event? Buggies I'm talking about are street legal. |
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| Chris Hamilton |
Jul 5 2008, 01:18 PM
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#26
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 7-March 06 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 5,687 |
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 5 2008, 11:49 AM) QUOTE(dw914er @ Jul 4 2008, 04:20 PM) Ive also seen a 9 second fiat with a T4 Does that one get driven to event? Buggies I'm talking about are street legal. How's this for a decent type I? (IMG:http://cbperformance.com/images/2332turbo.jpg) |
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| grantsfo |
Jul 5 2008, 01:30 PM
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#27
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Chris Hamilton @ Jul 5 2008, 12:18 PM) QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 5 2008, 11:49 AM) QUOTE(dw914er @ Jul 4 2008, 04:20 PM) Ive also seen a 9 second fiat with a T4 Does that one get driven to event? Buggies I'm talking about are street legal. How's this for a decent type I? (IMG:http://cbperformance.com/images/2332turbo.jpg) Cool! This post has been edited by grantsfo: Jul 5 2008, 01:32 PM |
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| SirAndy |
Jul 5 2008, 02:07 PM
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#28
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 42,207 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Chris Hamilton @ Jul 5 2008, 11:18 AM) How's this for a decent type I? except, it says "T3/T4 Hybrid" on the chart ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Andy |
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| grantsfo |
Jul 5 2008, 02:09 PM
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#29
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 5 2008, 01:07 PM) QUOTE(Chris Hamilton @ Jul 5 2008, 11:18 AM) How's this for a decent type I? except, it says "T3/T4 Hybrid" on the chart ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Andy So what is a T3/T4 hybrid? T4 case and T3 heads? |
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 5 2008, 02:33 PM
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#30
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,398 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
well since a T3 uses TI heads and TI heads won't fit on a T4 I'd say that they are referring to a T3-T4 hybrid Garrett Turbo.
This uses a T3 compressor and a T4 discharge. Damn Grant, I would have expected more from you. A TI into a 914 would free up more 914 cores for transplant into RI vehicles, which is where the engine really shines. I think it would make a great AX combo since longevity is of no concern. I have a 220 HP twin plug NA TI combo that rocks...With the guys at Beck buying so many engines from us I have started making our own parts. The guys over at Bugpack are also making parts for us and working together on R&D to make better parts. Anything to keep the radiator away! |
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| grantsfo |
Jul 5 2008, 02:54 PM
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#31
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
Oh so it is a T1. Thats even cooler! Damn more reason to go for a T1 motor powered car.
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| dw914er |
Jul 5 2008, 04:59 PM
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#32
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Planning Cities Group: Members Posts: 2,365 Joined: 1-March 08 From: Yucaipa, CA Member No.: 8,763 Region Association: Southern California |
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 5 2008, 11:49 AM) QUOTE(dw914er @ Jul 4 2008, 04:20 PM) Ive also seen a 9 second fiat with a T4 Does that one get driven to event? Buggies I'm talking about are street legal. its street legal, but barely. Its a rather cool car, but just saying it can be done |
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| Katmanken |
Jul 5 2008, 08:40 PM
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#33
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You haven't seen me if anybody asks... Group: Members Posts: 4,738 Joined: 14-June 03 From: USA Member No.: 819 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
With at turbo.
Strap a turbo on a dog and it will go faster. Without it would be a much fairer comparison. Turbo- the crutch for ineffcient engines. Ken |
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| DBCooper |
Jul 5 2008, 09:23 PM
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#34
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14's in the 13's with ATTITUDE Group: Members Posts: 3,079 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Dazed and Confused Member No.: 2,618 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(RJMII @ Jul 5 2008, 11:31 AM) QUOTE(Paul Illick @ Jul 5 2008, 07:27 AM) So it's a capital "G" then? It's ALWAYS a capital "G". So it's MISTER "God" Raby then? Or MISTER Raby, the God? Sorry dude, Jake, but that just sounds wrong... QUOTE(kwales @ Jul 5 2008, 07:40 PM) Turbo- the crutch for ineffcient engines. What? I'm pretty sure that neither a dyno nor your transaxle knows if there's a turbo on that "inefficient" engine or not. But they both sure know more horsepower when they see it. |
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| Katmanken |
Jul 5 2008, 09:40 PM
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#35
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You haven't seen me if anybody asks... Group: Members Posts: 4,738 Joined: 14-June 03 From: USA Member No.: 819 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
Paul,
It says it's a 2332cc turbo injected engine- aka it needs a crutch to get that level of efficiency and power. If power levels are equal, a turbo engine will never be as efficient as a non-turboed engine. Car manufacturers such as Volvo have been doggy engines and boosting their output with a turbo. Take off the turbo, and it's still a dog. Putting it another way, the power of that 2332cc turbo engine is WAYYYYY less without the turbo. Ken |
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| Chris Hamilton |
Jul 5 2008, 09:55 PM
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#36
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 7-March 06 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 5,687 |
I'm sorry, but I can't agree that a turbo does anything but make an engine more efficient. You are returning wasted energy to the engine.
Try telling buick grand national owners that their turbos are a crutch! How about 962 owners? The list goes on and on. |
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| Katmanken |
Jul 5 2008, 10:16 PM
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#37
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You haven't seen me if anybody asks... Group: Members Posts: 4,738 Joined: 14-June 03 From: USA Member No.: 819 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
Turbo's and nitrous both boost output on an engine that cannot produce that power naturally.
It takes skill to get an extra 50 hp or more outa an engine by tweaking the heads, the ports, the valve sizes, and the exhaust- reliably. I first saw that with my friend's Formula Ford. For the Formula Ford cars, they took a Ford Cortina block, strapped Cosworth DOHC heads on it with a tuned exhaust and webers and it went from an anemic stock 75 hp up to a reliable 150 hp. Could you strap a turbo on that 75 hp stock Cortina block and increase HP? Yep, but it will never perform like the ultra efficient Cosworth heads/exhaust combo. Well, maybe for a short time. With the stock combo, you would be blowing through a soda straw to try to overcome the flow resistances/inefficiencies of the stock engine (stock ports, heads and exhaust). Ken |
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| grantsfo |
Jul 5 2008, 11:00 PM
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#38
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(kwales @ Jul 5 2008, 08:40 PM) Paul, It says it's a 2332cc turbo injected engine- aka it needs a crutch to get that level of efficiency and power. If power levels are equal, a turbo engine will never be as efficient as a non-turboed engine. Car manufacturers such as Volvo have been doggy engines and boosting their output with a turbo. Take off the turbo, and it's still a dog. Putting it another way, the power of that 2332cc turbo engine is WAYYYYY less without the turbo. Ken But the motor is built for dynamics of boosted intake, of course its less effiecient than a naturally aspirated motor in unboosted state? Its not a crutch as much as its a motor designed to be turbocharged? Car manufactures use turbos for vareity of reasons. It is a way to save weight and provide excellent driveability with lower cost small displacement motors. I look at my 2.3 turbo Mazda as great example, it puts out 280ft ft lbs of toque at 3000 RPM and makes 275 HP Thats similar to a V8 motor with over twice as much displacement. For me it comes down to what is lightest package that puts put most HP for the least amount of $$$$ and maintains some level of reliability. Thats why I like T1 idea. |
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 5 2008, 11:08 PM
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#39
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,398 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Any form of forced induction breeds efficiency.. Without boost its hard to get more than 100% VE from an engine thats aircooled with less than 11:1 CR, however I have been able to squeeze 122% from the 1500cc Land Speed engine that currently holds the ECTA record.
An engine that performs best without boost, typically won't have the optimum CR and combo for boost so doing a back to back comparison is difficult. The best back to back I have done is a stock 2.0 that made 88 HP N/A made 160 with less than 10 PSI boost with no other changes and non intercooled. All other engines I have boosted tend to make double their N/A output at 1 Bar boost. I have two Turbos on deck now, one is a twin plug 2332 TI with a dual ceramic ball bearing Turbo and the other is a single plug 2.1 L TIV using an 82 stroke and 91mm bore with a T2/T3 hybrid custom Turbo that is also dual ceramic ball bearing.. I expect both these low CR, mild cammed engines to make less than 140 HP N/A and both over 300 at 1 Bar boost. Both are made for low revving applications that need smooth power and little lag. The last Turbo I built was 80X100 and made 283 HP @ 10 PSI boost with 340 lb/ft of torque.. |
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| jmill |
Jul 5 2008, 11:35 PM
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#40
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Green Hornet Group: Members Posts: 2,449 Joined: 9-May 08 From: Racine, Wisconsin Member No.: 9,038 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
I've built 2 1914's. They're the best bang for the buck in my opinion. The 62 bug I put the second one in would lift the front wheels. That's after I put on larger fenders and ran 8" rims. I would regularly blow the doors off my buddies Turbo'd Integra. I remember the first time I beat him. He was so pissed that he had more $ in his engine than I had in my entire Bug and he still got smoked.
Sigh.. those were the days. (IMG:http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7166/picture1mw1.th.jpg) |
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