SS Brake Hose... Racing vs DOT Options

[Slick914]

What's the difference between the racing SS brake hoses and the street ones?

My car has the racing ones on right now, but I do have the street versions on standby.

[southernmost914]

The street set has gone through the D.O.T. ,testing, paperwork process of approval. The "race" set has not. They could be the same or who knows.


Steve

[GeorgeRud]

Though you get a firmer pedal, keep an eye on the stainless brake hoses, they do goet old and break (the inner lining). It can make for an interesting experience (ask me how I know!).

I'd stay with the DOT ones, or stay with the original rubber lines. If you do keep the stainless hoses, do keep an eye on them. Remember, these are routinely checked on a race car, not so on most street cars!

[auerbach]

This is a question for Chris or Ed at Tangerine Racing.

[sean_v8_914]

Steve is correct. the Teflon lined ones do not degrade without mechanical confrontation. some racing lines may have the universal backing clips while DOT would be 914 style. some "race " lines may be of inferior quality since they are not required to pass certification caveat emptor

[Cap'n Krusty]

Whichever of the 2 you choose, it's wise to replace them every 2 years, if not sooner. Remember, the failure mode is gradual clogging on the rubber hoses, about 15-20 years out. The failure mode of SS braided teflon lines in catastrophic and random, often happening within a few years, the result is NO BRAKES, and it is instantaneous. The Cap'n

[DBCooper]

Whichever of the 2 you choose, it's wise to replace them every 2 years, if not sooner. Remember, the failure mode is gradual clogging on the rubber hoses, about 15-20 years out. The failure mode of SS braided teflon lines in catastrophic and random, often happening within a few years, the result is NO BRAKES, and it is instantaneous. The Cap'n

"...often happening within a few years." Really? Is DOT aware of that? That's certainly within the paramaters, so it seems like it would be recall time.

[Cap'n Krusty]

The DOT is concerned with "now", not the longevity of the product as installed. Any automotive service professional familiar with this product will tell you to regularly inspect the hoses for abrasion and corrosion, and that they need to be replaced often. They were originally intended for race cars, not for use in the street, and race cars are driven on clean tracks, for the most part, and only a few hours a year. Besides all that, they offer little or no performance improvement over what came on your car from the factory. If they did, don't you think the makers of high cost, high performance cars would install them at the factory? They're "bling" for everyday use, and dangerous "bling" to boot. This has been discussed before, at length, and I've offered far more expansive answers in the past. A search might bring those up. How many conventional brake hose catastrophic failures have you seen? As a professional wrench, I've personally seen close to a half dozen SS covered teflon hose failures, out of what I calculate to be the cars of less than a small fraction of 1% of my customers' cars.

The Cap'n

[URY914]

I had a SS hose blow out once . Never has a stock hose blow out on any street car/truck in 100k's miles of use.

You decide....

[shoguneagle]

Very good info in this thread. I have DOT approved stainless steel going on and now know to watch them periodically as you should for all brake items. Next time I will go with the rubber type since they appear to be the best and probably can watch the external deteration, etc easier.

Great info.

Steve Hurt

[DBCooper]

The DOT is concerned with "now", not the longevity of the product as installed.

Yeah, not sure about that. Lots of examples, but an easy one is the Passat recall a couple of months ago for cars going back to the late 90's. That was for a heat shield, not nearly the critical level of something that would cause a catastrophic brake failure.

This has been discussed before, at length, and I've offered far more expansive answers in the past.

Yes, I've been impressed by those. Still am, obviously.

As a professional wrench, I've personally seen close to a half dozen SS covered teflon hose failures, out of what I calculate to be the cars of less than a small fraction of 1% of my customers' cars.

Yes, you've said that before, and that's what drew my attention. That's still a HUGE percentage for a product that is causing unpredictable and catastrophic brake failures. Remember the Firestone SUV rollovers? A few dozen accidents, millions of tires recalled.

I'm not arguing the fact, just very surprised that the DOT and a whole horde of unscrupulous ambulance chasing lawyers haven't taken this up. It would seem to be a slam dunk.

[jmill]

I worked in the aircraft industry for years and I never saw a teflon lined SS hose fail. That is all the aircraft manufactures use. I've seen fittings leak or the line abraded but I've never seen one pop. A failure would be catostrophic. Aircraft have redundant hydraulic pumps but not reservoirs. I'm sure FAA testing is more stringent than the DOT.

That being said I've never seen a SS hose used in an application that subjected it to that much movement. Aircraft use them in locations where vibrations would cause a solid line to work harden. Their range of motion is very limited. Your asking alot of that teflon everytime you go from lock to lock. Take a piece of that teflon and bend it with your fingers. You'll see it kink and it'll turn white at the bend. Anytime that line flexes after that it will work harden the kink and eventually fail.

I like the idea of not losing volume/pressure due to line bulge but it's really the wrong application for the product.

[DBCooper]

I don't get it. If that hose is as deadly as you and the Cap'n say it is how could it meet the DOT product standards and pass the tests? Those standards are new and current, published in 2005, I believe. Is DOT totally unaware of the problem? Why don't the new standards identify those problems? Is it that DOT just doesn't care? Have any of these failures been reported? Are the manufacturers (there are a lot of them) aware of the problem?

Hot coffee provoked a lawsuit, so you'd think unpredictable and catastrophic brake faliure would provoke at least one or two. No? Then why not? I really don't get it.

[GeorgeRud]

I don't think that many racers were too concerned about where to report any failures, but I will testify that when they do fail, it's pretty exciting.

The opinion that they are "bling" is probably correct. I would not replace a rubber hose with a stainless one anymore. It seems that a lot of the pedal "firmness" that we were all looking for was lack of properly bled brakes and bending floorboards more so than expanding brake lines.

[DBCooper]

Fair enough and I have no doubt about that, but these are used on street cars as well. These are DOT approved hoses, not the unapproved racer type. Surely those failures showed up in police accident reports somewhere.

These questions aren't because I'll ever be using braided stainless lines again, I'm convinced. I'm just curious about what DOT's role is, since they have a relatively new performance standard specifically for these products. Seems they've been a bit like FEMA. Or the banking regulators.

[jmill]

The SS hose is a great product. There's only one problem. Once it reaches its elastic limit it's junk. It's a failure waiting to happen. The major problem being that it fails all at once. When rubber lines go bad they give you a heads up. A spongy pedal and increased stopping distance makes you stick your head under the car.

DOT testing is done in a controlled environment. If they don't subject the hose to its elastic limit it's all good. It passes with flying colors. The last time I hit the streets about the only thing I controlled was the radio station. It's far from perfect.

On a track car I'd run them. Every little bit helps. Limited hours, smooth courses and frequent inspections limit the possibility of failure. Not to mention the environment is somewhat controlled. I've never seen a little kid run across the track to get a ball.

[So.Cal.914]

For sake of discussion, say you do have a failure and an accident. If they are DOT your insurance company won't have anything to say. But if they are not your claim could be denied.

[jd74914]

That should be true since they will look at ways to deny you.

Though if you kill someone because of a component failure the majority said not to use you would feel pretty badly (that was not meant to be a shot at you Paul).



Again for sake of discussion, is there any way to tell DOT braided from non-DOT except for the clips?

[Mark Henry]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with the cap'n, I too have seen the failures, I too won't have them on my cars (DOT or not) and I too have have discussed this to death here.

BTW I have used them on my full flow oil system but like jmill said they only see vibration. But lately I only seem to use Parker push-lok hoses for FF.

[andys]

I don't know the protocol for how the DOT process is controlled, but I suspect it has something to do with testing, equipment calibration, and documentation. Any non DOT braided brake line I ever purchased was tested to the same standard, though it was probably not documented, and the test equipment may or may not have been within its calibration cycle. There may be more, but I suspect it's a rather loosely controlled requirement, since there are so many aftermarket companies and brake hoses available. Costs would also reflect the level of compliance required, but hoses are generally a pretty cheap component and not likely held to extraneous requirements; me thinks.

Andy1