OT Who do you side with?, Campus Police Offer Shoots Intoxicated.. Options

[seanery]

Slain student's family to sue for $100 million
Michael McKinney, a 21-year-old Ball State student, was shot and killed by a campus police officer who was responding to a burglary call.
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The family of slain Ball State student Michael McKinney will file a $100 million civil rights lawsuit in federal court Tuesday against the university and the officer who shot and killed him.

The 21-year-old McKinney was unarmed when first-year Ball State police officer Robert Duplain shot him four times Nov. 8. The 24-year-old Duplain responded to a burglary call at 3:30 a.m. that day and found McKinney banging on the back door of a residence.

Police say McKinney was asked to stop and that he lunged at the officer which resulted in the shooting.

McKinney was later found to have a blood alcohol level of 0.34, more than four times the legal standard for drunken driving. The student's family has maintained he was knocking at the door of the wrong house when Duplain shot him.

The incident caused outrage throughout the school's campus in Muncie and resulted in the university changing its police training policy in December.

The family's attorney is Geoffrey Fieger, a nationally known lawyer who successfully defended Dr. Jack Kevorkian on three murder charges for assisted suicide. He also won a $25 million lawsuit against the Jenny Jones Show in connection with the death of one of the show's guests. Fieger, whose office is based in Southfield, Mich., also was the Democratic Party nominee for governor in 1998.

"The facts in this case are egregious," Fieger said in a release issued today. "Not only was the defendant Duplain poorly trained and inexperienced, but he used lethal force in gunning down an unarmed man who had not threatened anyone in any way."

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I know there are more facts than you folks know, but what are your thoughts?

[J P Stein]

When I was a teenager, my dad told me that when a cop says shit, you say "Yesir, how many piles".....or words to that effect....Who is right or wrong makes little difference when a cop has his gun out. Darwinism at work, me thinks....egregious(a lawyer wurd) or not.

I passed that bit of wisdom on to my kids. Another one I came up with & told them. It's easier to learn life's hard lessons from someone who loves you.

[Rgreen914]

Actually, it would be difficult to "pick" sides in this case. The liability concerns inherent when carrying a badge and gun can be overwhelming to say the least. The fact that the university changed its "training policy" would lead one to think that they will ultimately face the burden of liability, alleviating the impact on the officer; they must have realized that their previous policy/training was inadequate and thus was responsible, in part or whole, for the student's death. Attorneys also look at the financial aspects of the case and always go for the "deep pockets", which in this case means the school. The bottom line is if the officer felt in fear of his life...the shooting can be considered "justifiable homicide". As long as the shooting falls within the department's policy, assuming they had one in place, the officer should not be held liable and the department should foot the entire bill!

[airsix]

The student was unarmed but how could the officer know this? It's dark, a crazed person is trying to force entry into a residence. When confronted he attacks. I'd shoot too. He could'a had a knife, or a gun. You expect the officer to subject himself to a possibly life threatening situation in order to give this POS kid the "benefit of the doubt"? It's an unfortunate tragedy, but I feel the most sympathy for the officer because he has to live with it. It's too bad about the kid, but frankly he chose to get so drunk that he lost all sense of good judgement. Flame on if that's your perogative.

-Ben M.

[Rgreen914]

J P

Actually, egregious comes from the Latin and means, literally, "away" or "apart" from the flock. Is my Catholic schooling apparent?

[914MF]

The general public has a responsibilty to act in a manner that will not cause the police to have to react or overeact to an action caused by the general public. In other words cops are people to and if you scare one they might possibly do something you will regret. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Mueller]

Since I've been on the wrong end of a handgun a few times (one by a San Jose cop, the other time by some lowlife I kicked out of our resturant many, many years ago),

I have to side with the cop on this one.....when told to freeze, i froze.......

The cop didn't know if I was packing heat or not, I'm guessing the same thing here...the kid lunged at the cop, what is he supposed to do, wrestle with the guy and search him at the same time???

If the kid had gotten the upper hand on the fight, he could or would have been armed with the cops gun, but nobody will every know that now.

[J P Stein]

J P

Actually, egregious comes from the Latin and means, literally, "away" or "apart" from the flock. Is my Catholic schooling apparent?

Heh,heh, me too. But my 2 years of Latin were...ah...shit...40some years ago.

All lawyers speak Latin or tongues so "normal" people haven't a clue as to WTF they're talking about.

[fiid]

Tough one. I can see why the cop pulls his gun first. He has to mitigate the risk that somone is going to pull one on him.

The kid was clearly being a dick, but people do that every day - doesn't mean they should be shot.

Think about if you have ever been a dick, or done something stupid while drunk. Then think about if you had died for it. Then think about if you really need that constitutional right to own a firearm. That is why the officer drew his.

[SirAndy]

neither ...

$100 mio.??? guys, your legal system is FUCKED UP.


what i don't understand, why didn't the cop just shoot him in the legs? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Andy

[anthony]

Cops only shoot to kill. If you shoot a criminal's leg he can still shoot back.

It's an unfortunate trajedy for everybody. The kid did a stupid thing by getting so drunk and then put the cop in a situation I'm sure he didn't want to be in. Giving the family $100M helps nobody.

[Rgreen914]

I too, hate the way attorneys talk but for a different reason. They always speak as if they were present when an incident occurred! Where is this guy getting his info from...from the deceased student? How can we believe what this liar, er...lawyer, is telling us about how this situation went down? If you've ever observed a trial, or been on jury duty, did you notice that the attorneys are never sworn in yet they always try to tell the story of how something "actually" happened! The officer shot the student because, in his mind if nowhere else, the student WAS a threat and as far as the law is concerned, the perceived threat is all the officer needed to justify his act!

[bongo monkey]

The perperator should never be given the benefit of the doubt. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as he lunged at the cop, he was a dead man. Suicide by cop.

[Rgreen914]

I don't think that officers are taught to "shoot to kill" as much as they are trained to shoot to "stop the threat" they are facing; if that means emptying your gun, then so be it! If I remember correctly, research indicates that most shoot-outs take place in distances of less than 12 feet! From that distance and in fear for you life, you will basically not have time to do much aiming; you draw and fire from the hip, time is of the essence! When you are in a situation like that, you resort to training, not thinking...and certainly not aiming. You shoot at the largest part of the target, "the center of mass", the torso, 'cause if you go for anything else and miss...or even if you hit an extremty, chances are the threat will continue. I have never had to shoot at someone, but I did draw my weapon a number of times and believe me, the rush of adrenalin is difficult to overcome. More than once, I've seen stupid, sober, people do things that should have got them shot!!! Remember...HINDSIGHT is always 20:20!

[fiid]

neither ...

$100 mio.??? guys, your legal system is FUCKED UP.


what i don't understand, why didn't the cop just shoot him in the legs? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Andy

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

The gubberment paying out that kind of sash isn't going to help anyone.

[415PB]

I agree with what has been said by Rgreen914. Sounds like he knows the business of law enforcement. Police officers never shoot to kill, they shoot to stop the threat. They are supposed to use only the force necessary to overcome resistance. This one is tough. We dont know how the officer was feeling at the time of the incident (I'm sure he was pretty damned scared). Were there any other options the officer could have used, i.e. OC spray, baton etc., other than deadly force. Only the officer knows that one. I can pretty much guaranty that the family will win the civil lawsuit though. But I side with the officer, but then again, I consider myself biased.

[SirAndy]

When you are in a situation like that, you resort to training, not thinking...

exactly my point. this was not Joe Schmoe from milwaukee (sorry joe, no offense) but a guy who is supposedly trained for this type of situation on a daily basis.

the guy didn't have any weapons in his hands and he's taking a swing at you. if he was 12 feet away, the cop had all the time in the world to aim for his legs.
anyone who has ever done any shooting (hunting or target-practice) will agree that it's really hard to MISS a pair of legs from 12 feet away. especially if you're TRAINED to use that gun.

and even if the guy had a gun in his pocket (which he didn't),
this is not hollywood ... after being shot in the leg from 12 feet away, you don't just frown a bit and grab for that gun.
you'll be in shock and you won't be moving anything ...


Andy

[seanery]

Since I started this I should comment.

The officer did what he did to ensure his own safety, which I assume all of us would probably have done in his situation. I hope I'm never in his shoes. The family needs to move on with their lives and understand that their boy fucked up. People, nowadays especially, are always looking for something or someone to blame. There are consenquences to everything we do in life, some are positive some are negative. It's up to us to take the consenquences or not do those things that bring about negative consenquences.

I'll get off my soapbox in a second here.
My next door neighbor was totally drunk last year and ended up wrecking his uninsured truck into 10-15 parked cars on his way home from the bar. He passed out and played bumper cars with them until he hit one straight on enough to stop his car. He got out after he came too and tried to walk away. The police showed up minutes later and arrested him, he was bloody and it was obvious he was driving the truck. He went to court several times and finally ended last month. He got 2 days in jail and a year of probation. IMHO, that is too easy. BUT, his attorney says that no one saw him driving so they are going to appeal and he thinks they will win. DUMBASS! (he's drunk every day) He doesn't understand what I'm saying when I tell him that he needs to take responsibility for what he's done. He will have to declare bankruptcy because he is being sued by about half of the cars' owners since he didn't have insurance.

Anyway, it's all the same thing in my opinion, people do things and don't think about what could happen and something does and they want to blame someone else.

Go Officer Go! Good Luck buddy!

[Mueller]

in the dark and with the "perp" running at him, the chances of missing his moving legs is greatly increased, (hitting an innoccent bystander directly or by bouncing off the pavement )

the upper torso is the best "target"..period

if he did get shot in the legs, the cop would still be sued I'm sure by the parents
(Jonny's dead, but driving around in this new 'benz sure eases the pain...)

[nebreitling]

i can just hear all the campus groups screaming "injustice!" and "police brutality!" jesus.... as a more-or-less liberal myself with far-right libertarian tendencies (figure that out), i am always baffled how sophmoric leftists defend the craziest shit (though the same could be said about a lot of conservatives).

yes, it's a shame that the cop didn't spray or stun the dude (instead of shoot him). maybe the officer's training needs reviewed. but it's a BIGGER shame that some young man got so f--ked up that he attacked a police officer. the student made a series of bad decisions that night, and probably bares the ultimate responsibility, IMHO.

but this doesn't make it less sad or less of a tragedy.