KitCarlson EMS Poll, How many should I build ??? Options

[KitCarlson]

Hey,

I know this question has a difficult answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) I would like to know a ball park number of EMS units to build in the first release. I need to order the mechanical parts and work with a contract manufacturer for the board build. Setup costs can be a significant cost for small orders. Lead time is also a concern.

Why is this question difficult? You are being asked to suggest to me your potential interest without knowing the exact cost or performance of the system.

The beta test unit is not yet in operation due to Brad's move. It was my hope to have un-biased tests in progress at this time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) I have been working on the system full time since the start in October. The next step is to be production ready.

For those wondering what is the EMS. It is an engine management system that provides direct ignition, fuel, idle, and turbo boost control for VW and Porsche engines. It uses a special optical distributor sensor means to avoid the mechanical difficulties in crank/cam sensors. The ignition timing is electronic. The unit provides an easy upgrade for the D-Jetronic or L-Jetronic systems. The system will be sold turn-key with all parts and harness.
For more information please visit: http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

Please use a personal message to suggest your interest. I will answer questions you may have.

I really appreciate this BB that works to unite all 914 owners, and a means to conduct this poll.

Kit

[Mueller]

Tough call.....I know there is a market for it and it will sell as long as the price and ease of use is within reason for the average DIY person and or shop. Not many will want to buy this if they have to take it to a shop and pay $500 or more for installation due to it not being plug-n-play.


If you are trying to target the 911 or 914/6 crowd, it'll be much tougher since more than likely they have carbs or MFI or CIS. None of these systems are as easy to convert to EFI as much as the L-Jet and D-jet are.

Can you offer a discount for a pre-order to help finance the process?

[KitCarlson]

Mueller,

You have good comments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

The system will be turn-key, and simpler than the D and L-jet's. The cold start system, FI points, rotor, and mechanical advance parts are gone. The 2 screws on the TPS, distributor nut, unit mounting, and harness hook-up is nearly all that is required for install. I am sticking with the 4-cylinders for now. Other engines are possible. I will do the application work, one engine/car at a time.

The wiring harness plays a large part in the ease installation. I missed the boat by not sending a completed harness on the beta unit. In production, the harness will be out-sourced to an expert.

If the initial quantity is greater than 25 units, the discount per unit could be ~$50.

Kit

[Targa]

Mueller is on the money! It WILL have to be competative to the price of changing your 914 from FI to Carbs. I'm interested assuming it can be used with a different cam and can support more than 160 horsepower minimum. What is the ETA? I want my car back on the road with lots more power with D-Jet no later than June. Otherwise, I will find some Dells as I'm smog exempt

[ThinAir]

I'm interested - eventually. Unfortunately I can't give a timetable, but I've got a 1975 VW Bus with a 1979 2.0L FI engine in it that I think is a very good candidate since it's getting really crappy mileage (even for a Bus). I'd have to see more info and real pricing to know for sure.

[KitCarlson]

Targa,

160 HP with stock injectors should not be a problem. The stock D-jet is limited in injector duration due to the FI point setup and the way the analog control works, injector overlap is not possible.

The KitCarlson EMS does not have this injector duration limitation. The 2.0L injectors flow 380 cc/min and are capable of ~ 75HP each or ~300 HP total.

The cam should not be a problem, an alpha-N mix is possible. Also the sampling means for pressure measuring is quite advanced. Not giving away secrets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Comparing the EMS to just carbs, does not include the added benefits of the direct fire ignition, and optional idle and turbo boost control.

The starting, drivability, and tunability of the EMS excels over carbs. That's what fuel injection is about. The ability to control mixture with temperature, baro and other operating parameters.

Kit

[94teener]

If the system will work with supercharger boost, I would be very interested in
buying one.

Phil

[Targa]

Kit,

Thanks for your thorough and prompt answers. Do you have an idea of when these will be ready and possibly a rough ballpark estimate on cost? I know what fuel injection is all about and would prefer to keep it. I did not mean just carbs. I was referring to everything(carbs, linkage, manifolds, fuel pump, etc.). I would not expect it to be cheaper but definitely competative.

Varik

[Mark Henry]

Whatever the number of people who say they want one, take that figure and divide it by half.
At least that seems to be the case with group buys.

Good Luck!

[nebreitling]

i'm certainly interested, my main factors are

1. price (i'm not super-cheap, just in grad school)
2. ease of installation (can i do this on a saturday?)
3. out of the box tunability (plug n play)
4. expandability (to support, e.g., a hot 2056 or 2270)

you've already touched on most of these issues, just giving you a sense of my decision criteria. i can't commit to one right now, but with a little "heads-up" and clarification on the above, i'd be interested as soon as this summer.

and btw, congrats and thanks for your work on our cars! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

nathan

[KitCarlson]

Phil,
Yes there is a EMS version for boost applications. It involves a different part # for the internal MAP sensor.
Kit

[Brad Roberts]

Electricity was turned on TODAY. I can now start working in the shop next door on the welding I need to finish. The engine is ready to go back into the car as soon as I finish the welding. 90% of everything is moved. Sorry for the delay. The move was somewhat unexpected. We have a nice new 4 gas analyzer that will help me tune it as well as access to a loadable rolling road dyno down the street.

Everything I see so far looks real good. I think the system will be VERY easy to install and we should have several base maps available for download to get just about any combo running safely.


B

[tracks914]

Forgive my ignorance but what is the point of this EMS.
Is it to replace failed factory units?
Is it to upgrade larger displacement engines but still use FI?
Is to tweek and outperform carbs?
Is it to improve drivability on stock and oversize engines?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
Is it adjustable?
Tx
Doug

[JoshuaSkinner]

I'm interested as I want to turbo the 1.8 in my '75. The engine right now is bone stock with adequate L-Jet injection. The only driveability problem is when it's dead cold it doesn't want to run below 3k RPM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

What I would like to know is if your system will support an auxillary PWM output to drive an extra injector or injectors for water injection. And like the others, I want to know the cost.

Oh, will the system also drive multiple ignition coils for direct ignition? How about coil on plug? I have to ask as I have a Subaru EJ20T engine and transaxle for a 914 swap. Probably won't go into this car unless I blow up the 1.8.

Joshua Skinner
Portland, Oregon

[RD Evans]

I am very interest in a system to replace a single carb on my 1.8. I've been considering a MegaSquirt project but really don't have time to learn the system and build it. It's really hard to say how serious I would be until there are more details and pricing information. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

[KitCarlson]

I will try to provide as many answers as possible to the question in the previous posts.

All, The turn-key system includes the EMS unit, application software, TPS and adapters, distibutor setup with core charge, ignition quad coil, wiring harnness, and plug wires. I am hesitant to release suggested cost, till I have a handle on the contract assembly and the harness cost. There will be a reasonable mark-up to fund development, operating expenses and profit.

Doug, Yes to all your questions.

Joshua, PWM is possible on the idle control valve output. The ignition system drives 2 coils (quad terminal coil) for a waste fire direct ignition. There is also a spare relay driver for general purpose use. Additional software development required depending on your application. The system has a bootloader for software updates.

Brad, Electricity is a good thing. Thanx for the update.

Kit

[Andyrew]

How much$?

I didnt see it anywhere, and most people would want to know before they jump on something like this..

Andrew

[Bleyseng]

I too was wondering how much, I thought maybe my ole eyes just kept missing the important facts.

The idea that it supports a wilder cam sounds good, how wild can we go?
What is the rev limits?
Turbo! You know you can't turbo a 914!
If it does support a turbo, what boost control does it support? Boost limits?

If its $500 I might toss out the trusty Djet just so I can use a laptop while driving to be just a cool as Dave Hunt.

Geoff

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Kit,
I'm looking for a FI system for my VW (this is how she currently looks):
(IMG:http://www.icbm.org/erkson/personal/engine.jpg)
I really don't like carbs and would LOVE to go to FI, it's just the cost has been keeping me back (well, and lack of a job for over a year until last week (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) ). I know there's a very big market in the VW world for you to sell to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) I'm comfy with FI so wiring isn't a big issue for me, it's just finding all the necessary parts and calibrating everything. I see you used a Palm (from your web site) so can other PDA's be used like my Handspring Prism Visor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Or would it strictly be a laptop?

One day, it would be nice to afford a turbo system so I could give my Porsche the proper power its namesake deserves and including FI would be soooo much nicer for me!

[Bleyseng]

Hmm, my 64 Squareback had duals on it, and my 69 fastback had the Djet. Dual Webbers looks good but I still love the FI.

Geoff