'Cooling flaps' in top of engine tin, Cable activated? How do these function? Options

[ME733]

if i put an oil cooler in one of the wheelwells do i still need to install all the crap?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) keep the stock oil cooler, use the "samwichplate" rerouter between the case and oil filter. Then you will have two oil coolers. I.M.E. the "damn flappers" are just piece of crap to eliminate so they won,t cause you problems later.

[SirAndy]

I have built plenty of street cars without the "damn flaps".

So you are the one!

I knew we would find you one day ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Andy

[ericread]

..well ..NOT having any air flaps. Diverters at all.....will not effect air going over the oil cooler....the air is pressurized..and as such WILL equalize in the sheetmetal back to front and go over the cylinders and oil cooler and out.

My $.02.

The above statement is not correct. Air is STUPID.

Unlike water, which will pressurize and equally flow, air will just keep pounding and build back pressure.

In designing under-floor cooling systems for computer data centers, we demonstrated time and time again that a high powered air flow pointing to the floor will not push air equally throughout the room. It will continue to pound until you provide air guides that properly direct the air. The flaps in the 914 engine provide the air guides necessary to properly direct the air flow. If you remove these, you need to create a new set of air-guides.

Eric Read

[McMark]

What you and other people have experienced is other problems with the engine that you failed to recognize.

So please explain to me how the same motor on the same day on the same road runs SIGNIFICATLY cooler simply by installing those flaps. It was a one day, in-n-out job and that was the ONLY change made to the setup.

[tat2dphreak]

If you remove these, you need to create a new set of air-guides.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) damn physics fucking up everyone's plans again...

think of it like a pickup truck(if anyone else saw the mythbusters you'll know what I mean)

the air flows out of the frond shroud in motion, but without direction, it will continue on it's path... so cyl 3 would get a little more pressure, but the air above the oil cooler will stay as "a unit of air" with the motion above it creating a cyclone effect that holds a unit of air above the oil cooler, but not pushing it through... engineers use this ability to "carry air" as a unit in the back of a pickup. which acts as part of the aerodynamics even. picture the bed of a truck right ABOVE the oil cooler.... it won't allow air to pass down properly. sure some "seeps" down but the stock flaps actually SPLITS the flow to get the air going in 2 directions. into the oil cooler and above, to the cylinders. the other side acts as an on-off switch basically.

Wes fabbed a piece that does the same thing... it directs air traffic to the oil cooler and to the cylinders breaking up the unit of air.

does that mean every engine without flaps will fail? no... but they may not last quite as long... may still last a long time, though.

think about it this way. the engineers accounted for the thickness of every washer the clearance of every piece... do you think they got to the cooling system of the engine and said "fuck it, lets put little flappy things here, that will be cool, right?" no... that was thought of to, and they wouldn't have put them there if they didn't need SOMETHING... the t-stat is probably more important in cooler climates, but the flaps are important in all climates.

[ericread]

If you remove these, you need to create a new set of air-guides.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) damn physics fucking up everyone's plans again...

think of it like a pickup truck(if anyone else saw the mythbusters you'll know what I mean)

the air flows out of the frond shroud in motion, but without direction, it will continue on it's path... so cyl 3 would get a little more pressure, but the air above the oil cooler will stay as "a unit of air" with the motion above it creating a cyclone effect that holds a unit of air above the oil cooler, but not pushing it through... engineers use this ability to "carry air" as a unit in the back of a pickup. which acts as part of the aerodynamics even. picture the bed of a truck right ABOVE the oil cooler.... it won't allow air to pass down properly. sure some "seeps" down but the stock flaps actually SPLITS the flow to get the air going in 2 directions. into the oil cooler and above, to the cylinders. the other side acts as an on-off switch basically.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Very well said!

Eric

[Dave_Darling]

...Well Dave, for you to say the ..No flaps needed " MYTH is pervasive and you need to be on guard"etc. is just ignorant arrognance..

Thank you very much, Mr. Kettle!


I have seen several instances where adding the flaps in (even ones just wired to the full open position) dropped oil temps dramatically. None were the same-day deal that McMark mentions above, but most were checked in similar conditions before and after. In at least one case, the owner fiddled with the timing and the mixture and tried to get more air-flow into the engine bay, and it still ran hot until he re-installed the "damn flaps". I know of many more cases where re-installing them made a difference.

You can keep building flap-less motors. Evidently you know the Super Special Secret that keeps them from running hot. But for all the rest of us, it is critical to keep them--in particular, the flap over the oil cooler.

--DD

[ME733]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ...WELL I am exasperated at the lack of creative thought on this subject matter by a few of you guys that are stuck in the monkey see monkey do philosophy of engine building. with your philosophy, and attitude, NOTHING, on the 914 should be altered or improved, as it cannot possably work better, run better, cooler, or with more H.P. ..So , hopefully as my final input to this post I Will continue to build.em my way and you build,em your way. staying as you are in the dark ages of technology. the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[tat2dphreak]

ok... live and let live I guess... I fail to see how just taking a part and throwing it away is "creative thought", but if it works for you, man... more power to you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[ericread]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ...WELL I am exasperated at the lack of creative thought on this subject matter by a few of you guys that are stuck in the monkey see monkey do philosophy of engine building. with your philosophy, and attitude, NOTHING, on the 914 should be altered or improved, as it cannot possably work better, run better, cooler, or with more H.P. ..So , hopefully as my final input to this post I Will continue to build.em my way and you build,em your way. staying as you are in the dark ages of technology. the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Actually, it has been mentioned here several times that it would be acceptable to remove the flaps if you replaced them with a suitable air flow mechanism.

Do you have a replacement part or system that you advise using, or do you feel that air flow to the cylinders just isn't that importnat?

Either way I'd like to see your response.

Eric Read

[Cupomeat]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ...WELL I am exasperated at the lack of creative thought on this subject matter by a few of you guys that are stuck in the monkey see monkey do philosophy of engine building. with your philosophy, and attitude, NOTHING, on the 914 should be altered or improved, as it cannot possably work better, run better, cooler, or with more H.P. ..So , hopefully as my final input to this post I Will continue to build.em my way and you build,em your way. staying as you are in the dark ages of technology. the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Generally, when dealing with something that was engineered, each piece has a purpose and unless you either determine that you no longer need the purpose (like removing the spray shields from the back of the brakes as you never drive in the rain) you, in an engineering manner, should either retain the item, or develope something to replace it.

This is especially true for WELL designed cars, as many parts on cheaper cars can be improved with a better piece. That being said, the T4 was a very robust aircooled motor for its time and it produced a reasonable amount of power/litre for its time. As we have "improved" the engines we have traded out pieces and improved pieces, but it is VERY rare when we are able to eliminate a piece all together (from the engine, except for things like a heater).

I am just trying to make sure that those who are less engineering inclined think they can just start eliminating parts without consequence.

[SirAndy]

... I am ... creative ... you guys .. are ... monkey ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yellowsleep[1].gif)

[johnnie5]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ...WELL I am exasperated at the lack of creative thought on this subject matter by a few of you guys that are stuck in the monkey see monkey do philosophy of engine building. with your philosophy, and attitude, NOTHING, on the 914 should be altered or improved, as it cannot possably work better, run better, cooler, or with more H.P. ..So , hopefully as my final input to this post I Will continue to build.em my way and you build,em your way. staying as you are in the dark ages of technology. the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

Does anybody know if I can buy a new bellows t stat for a bus (and if that will work) so as to get my 'obsolete' warming/cooling flaps functioning properly again?

Or does anyone have a good used 914 one?

[RiqueMar]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

Does anybody know if I can buy a new bellows t stat for a bus (and if that will work) so as to get my 'obsolete' warming/cooling flaps functioning properly again?

Or does anyone have a good used 914 one?

Johnnie, the flaps that you see in the picture that I posted on page 2 came from a 1.8 that I still have in the back of a truck. I can see if the Bellows mech is still there for you and I'm in Oceanside, PM me if so and I can check, but being in SD,
I've set mine to the default cooling position and I'm sure that will be fine.

[johnnie5]

RiqueMar, I have been running the flaps on my 2056 in the cooling position for almost the last year as well. But Joe Ricard makes a good point in post #10, which has to do with proper engine warm-up. Lets face it - the engineers at VW/Porsche didn't go to all the trouble to design this system for no reason, even if it isn't as cold in San Diego as it is in Germany...

I am going through my 914 trying to get everything in place and working. Things I rarely use, if even at all. Things like interior heat and defrost, windshield wipers and squirters. So I decided I do want the original cable/stat in place and functioning. After all, it did work once upon a time...

So, ya got one for me??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[neil30076]

RiqueMar, I have been running the flaps on my 2056 in the cooling position for almost the last year as well. But Joe Ricard makes a good point in post #10, which has to do with proper engine warm-up. Lets face it - the engineers at VW/Porsche didn't go to all the trouble to design this system for no reason, even if it isn't as cold in San Diego as it is in Germany...

I am going through my 914 trying to get everything in place and working. Things I rarely use, if even at all. Things like interior heat and defrost, windshield wipers and squirters. So I decided I do want the original cable/stat in place and functioning. After all, it did work once upon a time...

So, ya got one for me??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Johnnie, i removed all the creature comfort heat controls on mine, so if you need the parts that go 'up-front' under the hood to deflect the heat into the cabin let me know, also the heat control that mounts to the floor. Maybe even the dash controls -
Im in SD / RB

[tat2dphreak]

a bus one would be the same... but still NLA new. I bought a supposed good one, from a reputable seller, and it was too expanded and upon close inspection was cracked :|

the cables are available new, but the t-stat is not.

[pilothyer]

Wayne....and.....johnnie5... I am almost certain that George at A.A. Stocks / Sells the thermostat bellows New....used ones in good working condition are hard to come by as they seem to expand to the open position and even if put in the freezer won't make them contract....Jerry

[JFJ914]

Does anybody know if I can buy a new bellows t stat for a bus (and if that will work) so as to get my 'obsolete' warming/cooling flaps functioning properly again?

Or does anyone have a good used 914 one?

Everything explained here http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Thermostats.html . No, they're NLA. Maybe you can find an NOS one somewhere or adapt a Type 1 as described.

VW engineers put this stuff on the engine so it would warm up quickly and stay at a temperature that results in good performance and low engine wear. I use mine, re engineer at your own peril. All of this "you don't need it" is pulled out of the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burro.gif) . Nobody has tested their engine to failure both ways to form an informed opinion. As always, read, ask, FILTER the replies, research and then form your own opinion.

[Millerwelds]

My cable for the flaps is modified to attach to the heater lever (no heating stuff being used) on the floor next to the driver's seat so I can maually set the flaps to warm up mode. Once the oil temp gauge shows some good temps I drop the lever to set the flaps to full cool mode. It just makes sense (to me) to get the engine up to temp quickly.