suby hotrod motors, Probably cost equal to a really good porsche 6 Options

[charliew]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1699103

These motors are probably 15-20k once they reach the track. Just a offhand guess. As my son has spent 13k on a street motor with no tranny mods. Just motor, ported heads, bigger cams, 100mm bore, open source tuning with datalogging and utec piggyback, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, bigger oil pump, front mount ic, 8qt oil pan, true cold air intake and a 30r rotated turbo at 26 psi. Conservative tune about 425awhp. Also no water or alcohol injection yet.

[cobra94563]

porsche motor w/ 400+hp is more...

now..an SBC...

[J P Stein]

Great power.... then comes the age old hot rod question: Now what am I gonna do with it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[pktzygt]

Great power.... then comes the age old hot rod question: Now what am I gonna do with it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Thats what I was thinking but I would however be interested in seeing what a 425HP suby powered 914 running on race fuel with a transmision and tires that could handle all that power could do on the track. I'll probably never find out...I'm not going to be the one to try it.

[VaccaRabite]

porsche motor w/ 400+hp is more...

now..an SBC...

Indeed. This can be done on a "budget" rebuild for an SBC, and just about any good rebuilding book will give you the exact recipe to do it.

Zach

[WRX914]

Well this is a loaded question...

A hot rod suby could be as simple as mine... A brand new shortblock from Subaru of America - $1850 delivered to your door in a box that is approximately the same size as your CPU. You by yourself can easily lift the box and its crate and load it into your trucks bed. My original engine was $2K, I would figure you could buy a blown 2.0 litre for pennies on the dollar and dress the new 2.5 with the 2.0 items. I have a stock EJ20 turbo a stock ECU and when we get 100% throttle opening, I can't image what the car will do. The guys who helped me with my car (Snail Performance) can make incredible power from a Suby. Here is their direct quote off of a differnt forum...

"This car is crazy fast if we fixed it were the throttle would be 100% open the car would most likely just burn up the tires in all gears.

Thanks for the rides Keith give me a call if you need anything.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.snailperformance.com"


I guess that says it all. I have driven some extremely fast things in my life of 40 years. Raced shifter carts blah blah blah....

This set up is extremely potent without really doing anyting to it. Not enough? No problem, slap a STOCK STI turbo (used off of NASIOC ~$250) IF that is not enough, and I seriously doubt 99% of the driving population would say that is not enough... $1400 for a fully tunable ECU and you have a completely sick ride on your hands that there is a slim chance in hell anyone could controll this power in a 914.

HERE IS THE KICKER...

If you blow it up... $1850 later a package from Subaru shows up at your door.

[WRX914]

Forgot to mention....
Because the engine completely dressed can be lifted by two normal sized guys, it makes the "heavy work" much easier. We did my engine swap in my garage, two guys, two jackstands, a floor jack and a Girl Scouts 4-wheel dolly with zero problems.

Oh one other thing...no need for race gas either.

[DBCooper]

At what point do you consider a Porsche engine to be a "hot rod"? My stock used WRX motor cost under $1000. With the aftermarket ECU and unrestrictive exhaust (cats removed) it should be around 250hp. So what would a 250hp Porsche six cost?

Is a 300hp Porsche six a "hot rod"? A used but totally stock 300 horsepower Subaru STI motor is $2500-3500. To compare, how much would a 300hp Porsche six cost?

And those Subaru's are stock, cool running, smooth idling, drive across the country and back engines. Best thing, as Wilson mentioned, you can abuse them, beat the hell out of them, even blow them up, and make it all good again for a couple of thousand bucks.

I suppose you could spend any amount of money on any engine, but question is always what you get for what you pay for. For me 250 hp in a narrow-body 914 is all I need. That might change later, but for now...

[iamchappy]

I may need to rethink my engine, sell my 400hp turbo Porsche 6 engine and buy a Subie engine to replace it, and the wife a nice used car.....

[turboman808]

Yeah the subaru motor is so freakin cheap. But dam the air cooled 911 motor looks so dam cool. 400 hp 911 motor I have to imagine would be well above 25 grand.

[Brett W]

Hell a 250hp 2.0 flat six is well into the 30K range.

Real motors are expensive once you get past a certain point. Specialized parts and prep work are expensive, but they are required to get to the big numbers.

[charliew]

Any suby powered 914 should be easier to handle than a 400 hp sbc because of the torque differences and the need to baby the drivetrain with the sbc. When you get past 375 hp and torque a reliable tranny gets almost as expensive as the motor but moreso with the sbc. The low torque charicteristics of the suby might mean only a 6k tranny with lsd.

[DBCooper]

I may need to rethink my engine, sell my 400hp turbo Porsche 6 engine and buy a Subie engine to replace it, and the wife a nice used car.....

Hold on, hold on, there's a down side. It's not just the price of the engine. You also need a Renegade Subaru kit ($2000) radiator ($1000) programmable ECU and harness ($1500), odds and ends ($1000) and a couple of free weekends. Plus whatever suspension and other upgrades you'd do to put a six in your 914. More negatives:

1. It won't look like a big beautiful Porsche six.
2. It won't sound like a big beautiful Porsche six.
3. You won't win concours events.
4. You may not be welcome at PCA events (if they're dicks), and
5. You won't be competitive in your class if you race.

But that's not much for me to give up in comparison, and for pure no-worry fun it beats the hell out of anything else I do.

[charliew]

I see no reason to buy a renegade kit. But I like to fab as most hotrodders have always done things their way anyhow. The radiator is not complicated. Anytime you put a higher horsepower motor in a car it usually needs better cooling. If you use the subary tranny you won't need the adapter, thats 500.00 you can spend toward a bremar conversion or you can even do that yourself and apply the 500 toward a obx lsd, you will need it. There are some nice cable shifters now on the market but a fiero or grand am or boxter if you gotta have german shifter and some longer cables will work and shift just as good as the 914 shifter, probably better.

Tony posted a easy to make motor support that will work. The tranny can be hung from the 914 tranny spot easily.

If you use the sti motor and want to also have the avcs you will need the sti ecu and either open source programming or a piggyback. The sti is not a simple swap if you want the avcs. Which is more torque and hp. The avcs is worth about 30 hp by itself and makes a much broader torque band.

The renegade kit is for the non welder/fabber and will help to not cut the trunk up as much with the intercooler piping they provide.

Outfront has a header for the front of the motor that may be the perfect spot for the turbo because of the room in front of the motor. That might give more room for the little wrx intercooler. The high hp sti's use a much bigger front mount ic to make big hp. A lot of them also use sophisticated water-meth injection to go with way more boost than the sti vf39 can provide. Suby hp up to about 260 is sorta cheap but after that it gets more expensive. A real awd 400hp and 375 ft lbs in a awd sti suby is at least 4k more. At least 15% of that is lost in the rear wd on the suby which won't happen in the 914.

[plymouth37]

Subie is cheaper hands down. I have about 3K into my 320HP Subie engine, try to come even close to that with a 320HP Porsche six.
Just comparing the engines themselves that is, conversion parts aside...

[DBCooper]

Hell a 250hp 2.0 flat six is well into the 30K range.

Real motors are expensive once you get past a certain point. Specialized parts and prep work are expensive, but they are required to get to the big numbers.

Neighbor across the street twenty years ago was the race tech guru for Mercury Marine. He said he they were at the point where customers were paying $10,000 for every additional horse.

I've always resented turbo motors, thinking that was a unfair way to make horsepower. Having this car has changed that thinking. Screw "fair", bottom line is that horsepower is fun. And more horsepower is more fun.

[Brett W]

Turbos are the best thing for street cars. NA motors that make good power suck balls for driving around town. 400Hp turbo motor is a lot more friendly than a 400hp NA motor.

Marine guys are an odd bunch. The crank case for some two stoke engines are 10K alone. That doesn't count anything inside of it.

A good race motor will run anywhere from 20k-60K for motors that run on an amateur level. Professional motors are more than that. I love to hear guys bitching about spending $2K to rebuild their T4. I have that much in the head on the Honder. (and yeah it makes torque) There ain't cheap reliable power.

[turboman808]

Turbos are the best thing for street cars. NA motors that make good power suck balls for driving around town. 400Hp turbo motor is a lot more friendly than a 400hp NA motor.

Well I got to say I have this real urge to drop a LS7 crate motor into something soon. 600 hp for less then 20 grand. What a cool motor.

[grantsfo]

Subie is cheaper hands down. I have about 3K into my 320HP Subie engine, try to come even close to that with a 320HP Porsche six.
Just comparing the engines themselves that is, conversion parts aside...

Yeah I was going to say something similar. Set your goals around 300 to 350 hp and subie is hands down the cheapest compared to Porsche motors. And you can get that on pump gas.

[effutuo101]

I may need to rethink my engine, sell my 400hp turbo Porsche 6 engine and buy a Subie engine to replace it, and the wife a nice used car.....

Hold on, hold on, there's a down side. It's not just the price of the engine. You also need a Renegade Subaru kit ($2000) radiator ($1000) programmable ECU and harness ($1500), odds and ends ($1000) and a couple of free weekends. Plus whatever suspension and other upgrades you'd do to put a six in your 914. More negatives:

1. It won't look like a big beautiful Porsche six.
2. It won't sound like a big beautiful Porsche six.
3. You won't win concours events.
4. You may not be welcome at PCA events (if they're dicks), and
5. You won't be competitive in your class if you race.

But that's not much for me to give up in comparison, and for pure no-worry fun it beats the hell out of anything else I do.

Very ture, but, as a counter point, I offer:
1) /6 mounts: 275-400 + welding
2) /6 oil tank 700-1200. drilling and some costs for oil lines
3) /6 sheet metal/fiberglass for engine + parts that are not part of the fiberglass kit 250-750 (if you can find the metal)
4) some wireing, more if you go CSI
5) new gagues for the /6
6) carb tuning for non CSI

So, all in all, the cost is roughly the same less the price of the motors.

It boils down to this. the subie will create more power, weigh less, tighten up the f/r balance and provide years of trouble free service and be cheap to replace if you blow it up. The down side is that sound. Granted, if I had a subie, I would make it as quiet as possible and thrash the crap out of it.

Since I don't have a subie, I will have to live with the guilt and sound that my beautiful /6 makes everytime I run it out... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) oh, and the looks of jelous 911 drivers as I motor on by. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)