suby hotrod motors, Probably cost equal to a really good porsche 6 Options

[WRX914]

You do not need a aftermarket ECU. You simply need to have the stock ECU tuned $150 street tune $300 dyno tune.

I'm tellin ya, this is a sick set up. It may not be the fastest 914 on the planet, but I would bet it is easily in the upper end of road legal 914's on the road today. With the old 2.0 liter it was 914-6 fast, now... no chance. And it sounds like it just ate a healthy dose of holy shit! It snaps, crackles and pops on the deacceleration EVERYONE turns and stares...not just fellow P drivers.

[fiid]

Well this is a loaded question...
<<chopped>>

HERE IS THE KICKER...

If you blow it up... $1850 later a package from Subaru shows up at your door.

What you said. Although - you can have a JDM longblock for sub $1000, which means I can have 2 for the price of a new one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And the fun is just silly... tee hee (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[charliew]

A 2.0 wrx converted to a 2.5 shortblock is called a hybrid on nasioc. Not a real hotrod suby just a upgrade when the rod spins usually. The characteristics of the 2.5 with the 2.0 heads, cams and turbo is that it will not have enough breathing at 6k and above. The fact that it is in a lighter car might help a little when it's in the 914, but it will never have the higher rpm power of a true 2.5 sti. The sti has bigger cams and a bigger turbo to go along with the avcs cam control that gives a broader torque band especially at lower rpms. Even sti's with aftermarket cams run out of steam at high rpm without getting bigger valves and porting. The wrx 2.0 is pretty well a balanced combination that is reliable at the stock power levels until a 20 year old starts pushing it. It will live pretty well with a more mature user with mild upgrades up to about 260 awd hp on 91 octane. Adding the 2.5 shortblock gives it more low end torque and a little more hp. the noticeable improvement is usually because it's a new lower end with better ring seal and more displacement. Subys use oil when they are pushed hard and are boosted more. When they get low on oil the rods spin.

[WRX914]

A 2.0 wrx converted to a 2.5 shortblock is called a hybrid on nasioc. Not a real hotrod suby just a upgrade when the rod spins usually. The characteristics of the 2.5 with the 2.0 heads, cams and turbo is that it will not have enough breathing at 6k and above. The fact that it is in a lighter car might help a little when it's in the 914, but it will never have the higher rpm power of a true 2.5 sti. The sti has bigger cams and a bigger turbo to go along with the avcs cam control that gives a broader torque band especially at lower rpms. Even sti's with aftermarket cams run out of steam at high rpm without getting bigger valves and porting. The wrx 2.0 is pretty well a balanced combination that is reliable at the stock power levels until a 20 year old starts pushing it. It will live pretty well with a more mature user with mild upgrades up to about 260 awd hp on 91 octane. Adding the 2.5 shortblock gives it more low end torque and a little more hp. the noticeable improvement is usually because it's a new lower end with better ring seal and more displacement. Subys use oil when they are pushed hard and are boosted more. When they get low on oil the rods spin.

There is alot of trueth spoken here. Very well said... However I am months away from 40 and I popped mine (faulty radiator core). I have TONS of power left on tap just with adjusting the throttle to open 100%. My original point is this. You do not need a "Hot Rod Suby" to compare apples to apples. A real "Hot Rod Suby" will produce 800+ horsepower and will cost the numbers that were eluded to in the beginning of the thread. I wanted to show everyone that you don't need to spend huge money to get huge results. I no way did I ever say my engine combo is a "hot rod suby" in fact, just the opposite. You are correct as to the term "hybrid" applying to my engine's setup and that is exactly what I have. I didn't want to use the hybrid term in the 914world forum because we all associate that with a teener w/o a Porsche engine, not with a STI engine with WRX goodies.

Reading what people say you will expierance with a hybrid setup is a good place to start, but not exactly the same as having one and driving it yourself. It does start to fall on it's face due to the smaller turbo, but you are shitting your pants bye then so it really doesn't matter. Once again, if you still want more, throw a STI turbo on it, still not enough? Aftermarket tunable ECU, now you have atleast 500 horspower. I will be happy to let you drive my car and if it is not enough for you AS IS with 50% throttle opening then I digress. The last guys I took for a spin build 800 plus horsepower Subies that are all over the tuner rags and they were/are in disbelief what my little teener is doing now with only slightly over half throttle... You drive it, you be the judge.

[r_towle]

please explain a few things.
$1850 buy a short block or a long block?
Rephrase...does the item you get from subaru have heads, timing belts etc all installed? A pic might help on this answer.

So you get this motor.
You dont need to use subaru intake and FI, do you?
You still need headers, so where do you get those? are those new custom anyways, or are they a modification to the originals?

Hanging the motor cant be all that hard..its a retrofit bar of some sort.
Tranny can still be a 914 tranny.
Radiator seems to have been over thought by many companies...so there are many solutions.

Is it possible, or has anyone done it, to put a custom FI or webers on a subaru? Forget all the subaru ECU stuff.

Rich

[brant]

It always comes down to priorities.
try going vintage racing with a suby...
always a matter of priorities

[DBCooper]

please explain a few things.
$1850 buy a short block or a long block?

Short block. No heads, intake or exhaust.

Rephrase...does the item you get from subaru have heads, timing belts etc all installed? A pic might help on this answer.

No, it was a short block, so just the assembled block, crank and pistons. He already had a 2.0 liter WRX motor, so he bought a 2.5 short block and installed everything, heads, manifolds, electronics, belts, etc from the 2.0 onto the 2.5 short block, making his "hybrid" motor.

So you get this motor.
You dont need to use subaru intake and FI, do you?
You still need headers, so where do you get those? are those new custom anyways, or are they a modification to the originals?

I'm using a stock Subaru intake, throttle body, and injection, and I think WRX914 does the same. I control mine with a standalone aftermarket ECU, he uses a reprogrammed stock ECU. I use a stock STI exhaust to the turbo, then just an exhaust pipe back over the axle to a Dynaflow muffler in the stock muffler location. I think his is similar but I don't remember the details.

Is it possible, or has anyone done it, to put a custom FI or webers on a subaru? Forget all the subaru ECU stuff.

Yes, I think I read that someone actually put Webers onto a Subaru flat four. I think someone also put on ITB's too, but I honestly can't imagine why, unless it was just to be different. The stock motor, with very few tweaks, gives you all you need. I kind of like not having to mess with it, just getting in and going.

[DBCooper]

It always comes down to priorities.
try going vintage racing with a suby...
always a matter of priorities

Yeah, I have no intention of every going vintage tracing. Way too serious. I prefer just having fun with my car, and for me more horsepower means more fun. And it turns out that lots more horsepower is a lot more fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[charliew]

I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.

It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00

There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.

Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep

[WRX914]

I stand corrected... Charlie is correct. I called the guys at Snail and he told me more like 300ish. With my setup and a STI turbo.

He did however say it would feel like 500hp!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[fiid]

Is it possible, or has anyone done it, to put a custom FI or webers on a subaru? Forget all the subaru ECU stuff.

Rich

I'm running mine with a ~$200 Megasquirt II with a 1991-ish Ford EDIS wasted spark ignition system.

[SnailPerformance]

Forgot to mention....
Because the engine completely dressed can be lifted by two normal sized guys, it makes the "heavy work" much easier. We did my engine swap in my garage, two guys, two jackstands, a floor jack and a Girl Scouts 4-wheel dolly with zero problems.

Oh one other thing...no need for race gas either.

Thanks for all the nice things you have to say about us..

now..creating big numbers is fairly easy with our subbie motors. but for u 914 guys. clearance is a big issue, so for large garret 30r or bigger turbos. but why have all that anyways. after ridding in Keith cars and logging that man we realized that his throttel was only opening up 48% of the way. and his car was quick..had alota fun. and he is on a stock 2.0l tdo4 turbo..in our subie world we throw those suckers away asap.

now if you were to put an sti motor in there with a good bolt on turbo like the forced performance GREEN ( witch is on my car now making close to 400awhp and trq) and put it in a 914 your talking about seriouse power in that little car *cough go cart on steroids...cough* i dont think it would hook up....please feel free to email me or pm whatever if u have any more questions...or need a build (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[SnailPerformance]

I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.

It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00

There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.

Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep

i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..

like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...

oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...

mid 11s on pump in the qt mile.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[DBCooper]

Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep

Beep beep my ass.

I just can't see it, so I may have to be taught this one the hard way.

Actually the stock STI motors are 300hp, and it should do 5-10 percent better with a freed up intake, no cats and a dyno tune. But even at only 300hp that's what? 7lbs per hp? Not so bad. Stock motor, so oil changes at 7500 miles, spark plugs at 30,000, cam belt at 105,000, just like your family car.

So what's that Z06's lbs/hp ratio, anyway?

Found it, the 2008 Z06 is 6.3 lbs/hp. He'd have a small power advantage, but same ballpark. So no beep beep, especially on curvy roads.

[charliew]

DB think about this, you are running about 80 on 35 north no traffic, it's about 5am on sunday morning, you are daydreaming when in your mirror a black 08 zo6 comes up really fast. You say ok and go down to 5th, by that time he is about 4 car lengths ahead, you will never pull even with him I promise unless you got more hp than him and thats about 505. There's a real good chance thats underrated also. Subys are awhp not rwhp and 100 the vette is applying more hp to the pavement or less parasitic hp loss, also he's more aerodynamic. He may even weigh less.

A vf 39 is making a lot of unnecessary excess heat when it's making at or above 18 psi. As I said it's so close to the ragged edge you need to be a scientist to keep it alive on the street we were talking about 500 hp I think not 400, there is a lot of difference in cost.
Another nice very expensive suby, 8800 rpm, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTEZAINx9fw]

I'm really not sure what the top speed of a 914 is thats on record. I don't know if I would ever have the guts to try a 400hp 914 out the top.

Also most suby that are pushed hard will get about 3qts of oil added before they get to 7500 miles. They use oil and if not checked very regularly they will get low enough to spin bearings. Spark plugs will go way past 30k but the belt is scary if you are using high rpm valve springs and higher lift cams. The last thing you want is a broke belt.

Wittmer 25 is my son on nasioc he has a 04 sti with a built motor with a 30r turbo, 26 psi. The only thing we didn't do to his ported big cam heads was go to larger valves as he wanted to keep some low end torque for the street. 100mm bore forged pistons. He hasn't installed the water-meth yet. He got a new girlfriend. He runs a safe conservative street tune. A 400 hp zo6 is a good match, also the gto's and the caddys but the 505 zo6 is a different horse on the hwy believe me. In the suby a few runs at prairie hill produced low 12's on conservative 1.8- 2.0 launches as I remember.

At the drags or a little foolishness on the street maybe. Subys are neat cars but they are out of their element at 150 and above in my opinion.

[DBCooper]

Shift "down" to fifth? The STI engine I was talking about is in a 914, so no sixth gear and no "parasitic" awd power loss either. Excepting the aerodynamics the 914/STI would keep up just fine since each car has about 7 lbs/hp, but why on earth would I want to try him on at top speed, anyway? On I-35? In a 914? Wouldn't happen. My fun is more like Hwy 49 between Mariposa and Coulterville, where there isn't a straight more than a quarter mile long. I'm sure as hell not hearing a beep beep from any Corvette on that road.

Any kind of engine running high levels of boost will consume oil, and any OHC engine needs the belts, chains maintained. Nothing special about the Subaru in that respect, one way or the other, and at 100K miles it still beats adjusting valives. From the build quality it sounds like your son knows what he's doing, but every hot rod turbo motor I've ever been around has tempted the owner to turn up the boost until something eventually popped. But since the first post my point has been that when it's in a 914 you don't even have to hot-rod a Subaru engine to have the same lbs/hp as you get in that monster Z06. You can do that with a bone-stock STI motor and have all the fun you want. Except, as you correctly point out, at top speeds on public highways.

[WRX914]

Last year I ran a hopped up Camaro SS that sounded like it should be on the drag strip on the highway at highway speeds with my old 2 liter. he shit his pants that I not only stayed with him from 60 to 120, but I slightly pulled him. He followed my off the highway pulled into a parking lot and gave me a high five "that car hauls ass" I believe was his direct quote...

If he thought the old engine was fast, he won't know what to think now!

I am not saying I will beat em all, but I certainly won't back down and would gladly run any teener on the street. Porsche sixes don't intimidate me at all (there are a few sick ones that would probably give me the smack down) I regularily pick on 996's and 993's and without fail, They all can't handle the fact that a 914 just gave em a spanking!!!

[SnailPerformance]

ill run just about anything in my car.. 505 z06 sure.. will i win? depends if they can drive or not. as for older z06s.. all day baby.. im proud to say my roommate has a gsxr 1000 and i hang with him all the way to 150mph...subarus are fast when tampered with.. we loose almost 35% of our power thru our awd drive train.. so take my 400awhp daily driver ( on 18psi) add 35% and put it in ur guys 914...ull shit...i know i would..

[charliew]

I don't know what year gsx-r1000 you are playing with but the recent ones have about 156 hp and weigh about 470 lbs. You do the math. 650/150=4.3

[biosurfer1]

Next time I'm in Vegas, I'm going to need a ride in this thing!:)