suby hotrod motors, Probably cost equal to a really good porsche 6 Options

[DBCooper]

No, it's not a Gixxer, but you and a friend can drive it in the rain and stay dry, and 7 lbs per hp with a stock motor isn't that bad. For comparison with a 2100 lb 914 and a stock 100hp engine (being generous) you have 21 lbs/hp. The big step to a 190 hp Raby 2270 (for $12000) gets you up to 11 lbs/hp. A stock 3.2 six will have 210 hp, another step up to 10 hp/lb, but is also a good bit heavier.

You do have to drive it to understand, it's silly fun. It's not the brutality of a V8, but you have more than enough power and keep the lightness and agility that makes the 914 so cool. It doesn't look any different, but it's just plain wicked to drive.

[charliew]

I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.

It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00

There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.

Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep

i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..

like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...

oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...

mid 11s on pump in the qt mile.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

I found this on nasioc as to a vf39. Don't get me wrong I like subys, vws, porsche 914s all of it but the power some are stating is a little off. if you are real interested in suby power be realistic on the expectations. 21 psi not a welded waste gate though but most of the normal stuff. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1719851 Also be sure to know whether it's 91, 93 or e85 gas

Unless my son upgrades his 30r the vf 39 is what I have to use and a 2.5 with wrx ported heads and sti cams and romraider software but speed density for a more simpler tune. That will be enough for me but about 320 at the wheels is a hopeful endeavor on pump gas. It will have a suby 5 spd but closer ratio gears and a lsd.

[DBCooper]

i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..

like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...

oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...

mid 11s on pump in the qt mile.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

I found this on nasioc as to a vf39. Don't get me wrong I like subys, vws, porsche 914s all of it but the power some are stating is a little off. if you are real interested in suby power be realistic on the expectations. 21 psi not a welded waste gate though but most of the normal stuff. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1719851 Also be sure to know whether it's 91, 93 or e85 gas

Unless my son upgrades his 30r the vf 39 is what I have to use and a 2.5 with wrx ported heads and sti cams and romraider software but speed density for a more simpler tune. That will be enough for me but about 320 at the wheels is a hopeful endeavor on pump gas. It will have a suby 5 spd but closer ratio gears and a lsd.

Charlie, let's get back on track here. First thing, Travis at Snailperformance (Snailperformance) is a Subaru tuner (he's 'treefrogaz' on the NASIOC forums), so I think he's qualified to speak. No one's suggesting that anyone weld up their wastegate, the only point of mentioning that was that it's possible to do big horsepower very cheaply. If only temporarily. But for well-built motors here's a dyno graph that Travis did for a 30r turbo engine done right, seemingly similar to your son's but a lot less expensive: HERE.. That's 365whp, which is coming up onto 500bhp, and I think that qualifies as a "hot rod" motor. And more, even that 313awd horsepower you linked in your last post is over 400bhp, with relatively low-cost upgrades.

But let's get back to the original subject. Your initial post was to the effect that hot rod Subaru engines cost as much as comparable Porsche engines, giving me the hunch that you're going to be surprised to find out what those Porsches cost. But to answer the question we need to get the costs to compare. Would an aircooled 300bhp Porsche motor be considered a "hot rod"? For anything less than a late 3.6 I think so, but we really need to know how much say 300, 400 and 600bhp aircooled Porsche engines would cost, maybe 3.0, 3.2, and 3.6's, complete with flywheel, clutch, induction and exhaust. Costs for both low mileage used and for new. Can anyone help out here?

And to clarify, where did you get that $15-20K price for the 600bhp Cosworth/Subaru motor you linked in your first post?

[charliew]

Only thing I found on a nasioc search on treefrogaz was a few classified sales threads or comments.

This could go on forever it seems, this is just one I just went to nasioc and picked out. Spend some time on nasioc and you will find reliability is not cheap when you go over 400 awdhp. http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/coswort...07-p-53594.html

http://www.cosworthusa.com/ 16,375.00 not counting intake or exhaust or computer controls, water injection, fuel delivery front mount ic, clutch and flywheel, better oil system, etc.

http://www.slowboyracing.com I thought they made complete motors but maybe not.

http://www.Goodspeedperformance.com

Cosworth is just one of several engine builders but they have a well respected history and won't sell cheap stuff or cheap promises.

Part of the 35% power loss at the wheels is the tire patch of 4 9 inch wide tires. That also gives much better traction in the imprezza. That will never be there in the 914

The sti is 300hp at the crank. It's about 260 awdhp stock.

Last one cossie motor suby everything listed it's a long thread skip to the bottom, it's a evolution of his cars: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1545763

[grantsfo]

It always comes down to priorities.
try going vintage racing with a suby...
always a matter of priorities

Much cheaper to just rent a vintage 914-6 racer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

http://www.vintageracingservices.com/rentals.html

[biosurfer1]

Holy moly....$2100/HOUR?!?!?

[grantsfo]

Holy moly....$2100/HOUR?!?!?

Hey thats cheap! Ask Brant how much his car cost if he were to put $100 per hour labor charge on all his time he has invested in his vintage racer plus his new engine build plus all the parts he has had to buy, plus tires, tranny work etc. Then divide his total number of races into total $ invested in his vintage car to get cost per race. 1 hour of run time is pretty much a qualifying session and a full race. $2100 for a race day that includes tires, fuel, crew etc seems cheap to me!

[DBCooper]

Only thing I found on a nasioc search on treefrogaz was a few classified sales threads or comments.

A "few"? Ten pages worth, and that's posts only. And if you've read more than a few of them I suppose you saw that he tunes Subaru's for a living? Visited the Snailperformance website? The only point is that he's for real, is not just some NASIOC kid trying to talk big because he has a Subaru in the garage.

It's interesting to see different Subaru builds, but your original post was about how hot rod Subaru builds could be as expensive as Porsche. I just don't see that. You know Subaru's, so I think you need to get more familiar with the Porsche side of the equation. For example on the first page of this thread Brett, a thoroughly credible guy in my book, mentioned $30,000 for a 250hp Porsche flat six. That seems like it might be a tad high, but for comparison, how much did you say it cost your son to get 400 wheel (not brake) horsepower?

My point is that once you look into it I think you'll be staggered by what it costs to get similar (not even the same) horsepower from an aircooled six. I love the look and sound of a six, but at Porsche prices I've learned to love the look and sound of the Subaru even more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[charliew]

I also love the sound of a flat six at 7500 but I agree that I don't know about 30k porsches as I never had a desire to invest that much money in any motor. I like the suby's as long as the real potential is realized. the suby platform will never compete with a inline in cost versus performance because of it's design but it's a great motor.

I'm not sure who you are refering to about the kid as I built my first hot rod in 1960 and my son is 27 and a me with about 15 years hot rodding experience.

I also like to do it all myself and as everyone knows you can spend an equal amount on labor when you pay someone else to do your work but sometimes that might be the best way.

[DBCooper]

No, Charlie, wasn't referring to you, it was Travis. He's legit so I didn't want you to dismiss him as some big-hat-no-cattle NASIOC kid.

Funny, my first car was a 1960 VW, 36hp. I tried to make it into a hot rod, but it just wouldn't cooperate.

[charliew]

My third, a 58 vw, was a college car to replace the 46 chevy with a 261, a 6, bored to 270 with a paxton off a stude or tbird, it had a 2bbl in a airbox, and a nice muncie 4 spd, electric cad windows and 63 super sport seats. 3:90 merc rear end, it would scratch rubber in all 4 gears. Straight sixes also sound good with fenton headers.

The bug later got a hyd. lifter isky cam and a new 1500. about 68 when I got married and started a family. It wasn't fast but it would go about 95 with the ac on. Oh yeah it's a sedan made into a pickup with a dodge pickup cab rear panel and window. I think it may also get a mid suby one day.