Door gaps are not even any more!, Now what??? Options

[FourBlades]

I was test fitting my doors before painting them and noticed this:

Driver side.



Passenger side.

[FourBlades]

The gaps were ok before I welded in my Engman kit. I must have gone too
fast and ended up shrinking the passenger side??? I also did a lot of work
to the passenger side door jamb.

I measured the distance from the front suspension point to the rear inside
mounting point and got 207 cm on each side. So maybe the door jamb
sheet metal is screwed up and not the whole car (fingers crossed).

The front gaps on both sides look ok, about 3/16. The doors are the exact
same length. The drivers gap is 5/16 and the passenger is 1/16.

Now WTF do I do???

John

[ConeDodger]

The gaps were ok before I welded in my Engman kit. I must have gone too
fast and ended up shrinking the passenger side??? I also did a lot of work
to the passenger side door jamb.

I measured the distance from the front suspension point to the rear inside
mounting point and got 207 cm on each side. So maybe the door jamb
sheet metal is screwed up and not the whole car (fingers crossed).

The front gaps on both sides look ok, about 3/16. The doors are the exact
same length. The drivers gap is 5/16 and the passenger is 1/16.

Now WTF do I do???

John

Wow... Know any really big guys? I have heard of the Engman kit doing that. McMark was telling me recently that he only welds part of it.. Not sure which part though. I have also heard of putting bracing in the door openings to hold the integrity. Not sure what to do once the shrink has happened.

[SirAndy]

I have also heard of putting bracing in the door openings to hold the integrity.

Ayupp ...

Note the bolt in braces in the pic below.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

[SirAndy]

Now WTF do I do???

Put the car on a lift, open the doors and use a torch to heat up the long on the side where it shrunk.

You might be able to get some of the shrinkage back ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowtorch.gif) Andy

[FourBlades]

I did use a brace bolted to the upper seat belt mounting point and the lower
hinge plate. I think the brace I used must have been too weak. It was made
from 1 inch square tubing welded to a (pretty small) turn buckle.

It is also possible I just screwed up the sheet metal at the rear of the door
openings because I did a lot of welding in these areas.

I should have re-fitted the doors while working on the door jambs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Should I reassemble it and see if it aligns correctly?

Any measurements I could do using simple tools to see if the whole car
is screwed up?

Arrrghhh!!!

John

[FourBlades]

> Put the car on a lift, open the doors and use a torch to heat up the long on the >side where it shrunk.

> You might be able to get some of the shrinkage back ...

Yeah Andy, I was wondering about that. If I evenly heated the side that was
shrunken and then braced it with a big jack screw or something.

Anyone ever try that?

I really need to know first if this is a cosmetic problem or a chassis warping
problem...

I measured the distance between front and rear suspension pickups diagonally and got
221 cm one way and 220.5 the other. This is less than .22 % difference, so the car is
pretty nearly square. If one side of the car was longer than the other, this would not
be so close. I am thinking this is a sheet metal problem not a chassis problem, or is
this just wishful thinking???


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif)

[SirAndy]

Any measurements I could do using simple tools to see if the whole car
is screwed up?

http://www.914world.com/specs/bodydims.php

[Bartlett 914]

I feel your pain. I repaired my 75 when I got it in the early 80's. I had no experience welding on cars. I learned to MIG weld on my car. My gaps are just like yours. I replaced metal around the passenger long at the jack points. I also replaced the rear quarter panel. I didn't use any bracing. I would really like to repair my car but I am not sure the best way to go about it. One suggestion I received was to stretch the passenger long. Using clamps at the pinch point at the bottom. Maybe weld some brackets top and bottom and use either jacks or screws to stretch the long while using heat. I have tried nothing to date. I am just living with uneven gaps.

[FourBlades]

Thanks man...did you have any trouble getting your car to align?

After lots of careful measurements, it looks like the rear fenders are
exactly the same length. The problem is that the passenger long is .375 inches
shorter than the drivers long. This checks out with the diagonal measurements
I took. 221 vs 220.5 allows for a difference of .21 inches in length. I am sure
there is some error in my measurements as well.

I suppose I could go Cellete bench or other frame machine to fix it but only
if I can't get a good alignment done.

Anyone know roughly what this costs? I think Andy had some of his cars
fixed once...

Maybe a 20 ton hydrallic ram like they use for straightening crash damage
would help? That might just cause lots of other cracking though...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

John

[sww914]

It will be very difficult or impossible to find any metal on the outside of the car to push on that will be strong enough to not crush under the pressure of a jack. A Cellette (sp?) bench or live with the gaps adjusted as well as possible look like the only real options now IMHO.

[FourBlades]

According to wikipedia, steel expands .00000645 inches per inch per degree
F increase in temperature. The longs are 45 inches in length, so if I heat
them 1200 degrees F they should expand just right to remove the shrinkage.
Acetlyne burns at 5700 degrees F in oxygen. In theory, I could carefully
heat the long up, probably hotter than 1200, brace it, and let it slowly cool.

I may try it if someone else has done this and had it work...

It might stain my new paint though.

Maybe it would buff out with Mothers.

John

[Wes V]

I've got a question for the author of this string and also others that have had the same problem while welding in the Engman.

Is it a matter that the longtudinal is shrinking or that it's taking a curve??

In other words, is it just the door gap at the top (which would be curvature) or the gap shrunk on both the top and bottom equally (which would be shrinkage in length of the longtudinal.

I've always assumed that it's curvature that people are talking about. I also assumed that it's due to the fact that the added bracket is an L shape and covers the top, which is welded. (the bottom of the long is partially prevented by shrinking due it's attachment to the floor pan.


I'd really like to know due to wanting to install one of the kits.

Wes

[FourBlades]

Wes,

This is a really good question. I went out with a level and measured both of my
longs, and guess what, both are arched. The middle of the longs are higher than
the edges on both sides. I estimate there is 1 mm of arch. The bottom edges
of the longs are also arched, but not as much, maybe half as much. I can
measure more carefully tommorrow.

You may be right that the top of the long shrinks more than the bottom because
of the floor pan and also because the Engman kit does not connect to the bottom
of the long. Maybe that means I need to apply heat only where the Engman
kit is to restore the correct shape, even though I did a lot of other welding
to this long.

Keep in mind that I am not knocking the Engman kit at all, it is a piece of art.
Mine fit perfectly, I just got too aggressive about welding it in, even though he
tells you not to. I will put them in my next car, but I will weld a lot more slowly.

My car was in really bad shape when I got it and this is my first resto project
so it is not surprising I F-ed it up a little. Don't make the same mistake!

John

[drive-ability]

I had that happen as well when I installed some steel. I talked to my bud who painted the car and hes got a dozen pull-pots awaiting me in Washington. He said I could heat things up but his way would work better. My car has a little extra steel, we installed 1/4" inner liners. I think it would be hard to get those anvils hot enough to move with out pulling a bit.
You need to just take your time and get it right, looks like a nice car !

[r_towle]

The A pillar, at least the part that the door hinge attaches to can be moved. If you are careful and make two vertical blocks that are custom scribed to the front and rear door jambs, you should be able to use those and a hyraulic jack to push the door open.
That is how I would fix the side that is tight...
While you are pushing, pull out on the rear fender lip at the wheel well.

Rich

[FourBlades]

Rich,

Thanks for the suggestion. Have you tried this before?

Maybe what you suggested plus some gentle heating?

John

[r_towle]

Yes I have done it.
Push on the outer rear b-pillar while pulling out the rear fender well.

If you doubt me...go hang the door...pull on the fender right at the wheel...pull it out gently 90 degrees from the center line of the car...as if you are adding a fender flare. you will see the gap change...you just need to use a jack to do it slowly and keep it there.

RIch

[FourBlades]

OK, cool, I will try it tomorrow.

Thanks....John

[Bartlett 914]

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