Need Engine rebuilding advice, 1.7 top end bad, need some options Options

[brandomc]

Hi Everyone, I am needing some advice for what i should do with my engine. I have a 72 1.7 Fi motor with 80k on it at least. The previous owner said that he put all new seals in it and ignition components, but as far as i can tell he did nothing. He also said that it just needed a valve job on the passenger side cylinder head. Also a big lie. when i tested compresson on the engine "after buying it" i found 0 compression on Cyl # 4. I decided to let a volkswalgon mechanic i know work on it since i thought all it needed was a valve seat or something like that replaced. Oh yeah, the engine did run, but not well. Anyways, the mechanic calls me over and shows me the carnige of my top end.


It isnt too bad i guess, but the head, piston and cylinder are shot on #4. The mechanic says that he will pull the pistons and cylinders and use his extensive knowlege of the engines to determine if the bottom end is good or not without disasembling. He did that and told me that the bottom end seems solid and he couldn't see anything wrong with it. He then said that he could get all the new parts for my top end for 1500+ 2000 for labor. I feel that it is worth it to do the labor myself and i know im quite capable, i just need to know the best option for parts, or if i should just start from scratch and build a "biger" engine. Does Raby have any top end kits for something like this? Any advice is appreciated.

[tat2dphreak]

you can easily make it a 1911 by slapping some 96mm P/Cs on it, or do a stock top end. you might have to get the case machined to accept the bigger cylinders. the heads will need work, that isn't cheap. but cheaper than your mechanic wants for a top-end

you can do the top-end yourself, fo shizzle. Jake has a great video to show you how to rebuild a type 4.

3500 for a top end does sound a little steep, imo.

one of Jake's kits will be about that price or more if you want to go that route. or McMark's $5k 2056 would be a very attractive option at that price point... before I dropped 3.5k on a top-end for a 1.7, I'd go with one of these 2 options. personal opinion tho...

[brandomc]

Has anyone on here taken there stock 1.7 and turned it into a 1911 without touching the bottom end?
If i were to go with the 2056 from McMark, I would need a core 2.0? Carbs, exhaust, engine tin? It would probably be alot more than 5K in the end right? I would love to go big on the engine, but im still not sure if that is the best option. It would be so nice though to have an engine show up that has been done right and will give me the power i desire and reliability as well. Any more ideas??

[roadster fan]

I am looking at building a 1911 from a 1.7. The case will need to be machined to accept the 96 mm cylinders. The heads will need to be machined to accept the 96mm cylinders but you are rebuilding those anyway. Use the 1.7 crank and rods after being checked. Those I have talked to that have a 1911 like em.

$$$ go up exponentially from there.

Oh you could use 1.8 heads if you could find some cheap cores to rebuild, as you need to rebuild yours anyway and that would eliminate the cylinder machining on the heads.

I dont know if you mentioned it, but carbs or FI?

Jim

[roadster fan]

Yes you can get 96mm pistons and cylinders that will work in the 1.7 without machining the heads and case, but I hear the cylinder wall thickness is ridiculously thin.

On a supposed 80K mile motor I wouldnt build the top end without checking the bottom end, and then new bearings are cheap. I am sure the experts will chime in though, be patient.

Jim

[brandomc]

The head that the valve broke out of and stuck into the piston is pretty banged up in the CC, so i think that head would have to be replaced. Im running stock FI right now, but already tired of the rats nest of hoses. By the way, Whats the difference between 1.7, 1.8, and 2.0 heads? Im up for building a 1911, but if im only a few thou away from a 2056, i would probably go that way. How do i find all the info on the 1911 kit?? Thanks guys!

[neil30076]

The head that the valve broke out of and stuck into the piston is pretty banged up in the CC, so i think that head would have to be replaced. Im running stock FI right now, but already tired of the rats nest of hoses. By the way, Whats the difference between 1.7, 1.8, and 2.0 heads? Im up for building a 1911, but if im only a few thou away from a 2056, i would probably go that way. How do i find all the info on the 1911 kit?? Thanks guys!

I'm running a 1911, PO did it right and machined to accept 96mm cylinders, plus a web cam and dual 40 IDF webers - it is a blast to drive, lots of parts removed to drop weight, no heat exchangers, all the heating type comfort stuff - who needs it in San Diego anyway!
- noisey as hell - but fun!
Buy a quality kit, not the cheap stuff on eBay -
Good luck

[McMark]

You can get the motor back on the road for cheap, or you can spend some more and build the whole motor that will last longer and make more power.

As a reference, I've build a complete 1911 (a full rebuild, not a top end) for a customer for about the same as what he's quoting you for a top end.

If I were you I would look for a set of 1.8 heads and get some 96mm cylinders and do a complete build of a peppy little 1911.

[aircooledtechguy]

You NEED to pull the bottom-end apart anyway to find the chunks of that piston where the valve now sits. That is not an option. If it were. . .

A top-end rebuild is a false economy IMHO. The big expense of rebuilding one of these motors is in the top-end anyway (P&C set and heads). If that's all you do, you end up with a new top end getting it's commands from a worn-out cam and lifter set. Nothing is worse for performance and head temps than the stock cam. This is your opportunity to get a well thought-out cam and lifter set in there and fresh bearings all around.

Ignoring the bottom-end will only save you about $500-$600 (stock w/ Web cam). This will also enable you to better set your CR up to 8.5-9.0:1 to work better with a good aftermarket cam.

[brandomc]

Thanks guys, these are great replys. I didnt feel like throwing all that money at the top end without doing the bottom too, that just isnt' like me to half ass something so important. Im just trying to get all the ideas i can. So does Jake Raby have a complete 1911 kit i can use? Im in burbank, anyone in my area that is recommended for machining? It is hard for me to find time to research all this since im working 2 jobs and dont get home till late usually. I really want this car on the road!!!

[brandomc]

You NEED to pull the bottom-end apart anyway to find the chunks of that piston where the valve now sits. That is not an option. If it were. . .

A top-end rebuild is a false economy IMHO. The big expense of rebuilding one of these motors is in the top-end anyway (P&C set and heads). If that's all you do, you end up with a new top end getting it's commands from a worn-out cam and lifter set. Nothing is worse for performance and head temps than the stock cam. This is your opportunity to get a well thought-out cam and lifter set in there and fresh bearings all around.

Ignoring the bottom-end will only save you about $500-$600 (stock w/ Web cam). This will also enable you to better set your CR up to 8.5-9.0:1 to work better with a good aftermarket cam.

There was and extremly clean hole poped in the piston that couldnt be much larger than a pencil eracer, but i agree that the piece needs to be found. That piston is making a beautiful piece of garage wall art now.

[r_towle]

Provided the crankshaft is ok, the parts for the remaining portion of the engine ( gaskets and bearings and seals) would add up to less than $200 bucks.
Add into that $200-$400 to check the crank and recondition the rods..
Its not a question of doing it....just do the lower end.

There are loads of great resources here and you can learn how.

Based upon the large chunk of the cylinder that was broken off during the head removal I would stop right now and take the motor home.

Rich

[Jake Raby]

I discontinued the 1911 kit, but I still have all the 1911 combinations memorized....

[HAM Inc]

I'd rather have the 1.7 heads for a 1911. Regardless of which heads you use, they will have to be rebuilt with new seats, guides, valves, springs, retainers, exhaust studs, etc. The 1.8 heads are WAAAY more likely to be cracked than the 1.7's, which means more time spent on repairs. The 1.7 heads have smaller intake ports than the 1.8's and really lend themselves toward a great low-end, torquey engine with good MPG. My personal choice for any street engine under 2.0 liters (I really like low-end grunt!) is hands down a pair of 1.7Q heads.
The damage to the head in the photo appears minimal. The seats all have to be removed anyway when rebuilding. That's just one less to pull out!LOL.
You will need to go into the bottom end. The shock of the valve and piston collision and subsequent quench into the head will have damaged bearings at a minimum, and could have damaged the rod and crank, and possibly even the case. On top of all that you'll want to install a new cam and lifters anyway.

Save yourselve head aches and see if you can get Jake to pull together what you need in a kit form. Combined with his build video you can do it yourself.

[Chris Pincetich]

I really want this car on the road!!!

Here's what I did, totally different route, suggested by local 914 mechanic.
Get a used, off-the-shelf 1.7 motor with a 90 day warranty. 3 years ago the 2.0 cost $1800 and the 1.7 cost $450. I got mine from EASY and I got lucky, have 3 years of driving and AX racin on it, maybe 20k with only one valve adjustment and frequent oil changes. Stock D-jet retained.

If you have skills, you can swap the engines in a day or weekend. Drive it hard for 2 months, and bring it back if it is no good. You may be able to keep your core and work on it too!
Good luck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[McMark]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Building a complete motor is a smart move, but you said "I really want this car on the road!!!" which means that a smarter move might be to get a good running motor to get you back on the road, and save some money for a 2056 or 2270/2316 kit.

I know I'd rather be driving my car while building a motor, even if it's with a tired 1.7.

[brandomc]

I discontinued the 1911 kit, but I still have all the 1911 combinations memorized....

Who still makes a quality 1911 kit? All of the options you guys are giving me sound great, just need to figure out which one will make me the happiest. I am definatly leaning toward building an engine. I am now working for a "famous garage" doing reverse engineering of antique car parts, and the guys there would like to see me accomplish some engine builds. I also want to get this car on the road before any other projects push this one out of the way. Thanks again for all the help, Keep the suggestions and info comeing!!! PLease!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[McMark]

If I read Jake's post correctly, he's saying that if you talk to him, you can get all of the parts to build a motor. Maybe not an official RAT Kit, but basically the same thing without the title.

[brandomc]

"Here's what I did, totally different route, suggested by local 914 mechanic.
Get a used, off-the-shelf 1.7 motor with a 90 day warranty. 3 years ago the 2.0 cost $1800 and the 1.7 cost $450. I got mine from EASY and I got lucky, have 3 years of driving and AX racin on it, maybe 20k with only one valve adjustment and frequent oil changes. Stock D-jet retained. "

Who, or What is EASY?? I have heard of somewhere in SO CAL that i can get these engines used, but never have been able to get details. I would like to drive it and build a bigger engine at the same time. Or just drive it and work on one of my other 5 cars. "i am in love with this one right now though"

[McMark]

European Auto Salvage Yard in Emeryville CA. Those guys are great.