Replacement STEEL Fenders with flares?, ...or a pair in good shape Options

[tomeric914]

I know there are flared fiberglass front fender replacements. Just wondering if anyone knows if there are replacement front fenders with flares as an integral part of the stamping?

...or alternatively, does anyone have a pair of steel flared front fenders that have been removed?

[JazonJJordan]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Evening Tom,

Interesting, I was looking up pressing sources a few day ago with exactly this in mind. An easy and accurate solution. In any other car it is a simple possibility while we are hand fitting and retrofitting. It must be impossible... (anybody?) what are the technical issues with this approach? Thanks-jzn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[degreeoff]

only one issue I can see....$$ in versus $$ out

The former will never justify the later

My $.02 that will buy aprox 1/100 lb of the steel required to make afore mentioned tooling.

[tomeric914]

only one issue I can see....$$ in versus $$ out

The former will never justify the later

My $.02 that will buy aprox 1/100 lb of the steel required to make afore mentioned tooling.

I agree 100% that tooling up to do this would not be a lucrative decision. If someone has a pair of flared front fenders that they are willing to part with, please PM me!

One of my front fenders has some crust on it that will require removal to properly fix. The other fender was reattached by the previous owner who left ZERO door to fender gap. Both need to come off anyway!

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

and if they were going to be made the factory would have made them instead of a stock fender and then a fender flare. Even the GTS that the factory made were cut and the flares welded on!

[JazonJJordan]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Haha~ I hear ya! Tooling considered, I expect there would be one thousand instantly available buyers in the 914 clubs combined. It is a chief issue and delayed project due to difficulty and cost. But a cost of $500 to $1000 plus bonding or welding moves this cost to $1000-$2000 in materials, labor, errors and still is not consistant like formed fenders would be.
None (Very very few..)of these cars are precisely correct despite some of the greatest efforts that leave them beautiful none the less.
I suspect, tooling distributed over 1000 would be affordable and produce consistant results. Sheet steel is cheap considering the thousands we are gladly forking over for the current conversions. The tooling is the question. This will test your $.02 for value; To make a master and to create the press- what is the cost distributed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

only one issue I can see....$$ in versus $$ out

The former will never justify the later

My $.02 that will buy aprox 1/100 lb of the steel required to make afore mentioned tooling.

[r_towle]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Haha~ I hear ya! Tooling considered, I expect there would be one thousand instantly available buyers in the 914 clubs combined. It is a chief issue and delayed project due to difficulty and cost. But a cost of $500 to $1000 plus bonding or welding moves this cost to $1000-$2000 in materials, labor, errors and still is not consistant like formed fenders would be.
None (Very very few..)of these cars are precisely correct despite some of the greatest efforts that leave them beautiful none the less.
I suspect, tooling distributed over 1000 would be affordable and produce consistant results. Sheet steel is cheap considering the thousands we are gladly forking over for the current conversions. The tooling is the question. This will test your $.02 for value; To make a master and to create the press- what is the cost distributed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

only one issue I can see....$$ in versus $$ out

The former will never justify the later

My $.02 that will buy aprox 1/100 lb of the steel required to make afore mentioned tooling.

You wont find 1000 buyers for these...at least not for quite a few years.
If it was a bolt on fender, than you would.
Either way its done, whole fender or flare alone, you still need to weld.

IMHO is is easier fit and weld a flare in place for the average person than it would be to fit a fender with all the gaps and variables.

Rich

[JazonJJordan]

A fair point, however- in your extensive experience; I think we can safely say there are a few things the factory did that you would have done differently..am I right? Certainly no successful manufacturer today would choose this method in volume. Prototype, yes. Effective on thousands of vehicles, yes. Difficult for individual owners and as compared to formed fenders- Not the most precise method and technique probably.
George, do you feel this fender has merit- not with-standing cost or actual method?
If so; it is method justified by cost, qualified by market demand present.
But first, a steel formed fender is feasible, is it not? (from a technical standpoint-not cost) Would it produce superior results? Thanks -Jzn

and if they were going to be made the factory would have made them instead of a stock fender and then a fender flare. Even the GTS that the factory made were cut and the flares welded on!

[Katmanken]

It's gonna be really $$pendy for the dies to form the parts and for the parts in a limited volume. First, to form sheet metal, it takes a big assed press. The bigger the part, the bigger the press

Second, that front fender is a very complex shape which means that it will take a forming die with a lot of $$pendy slides or a series of progressive forming dies to form the different features. Slides in any tools are costly as slides in forming dies must be very strong and very costly. Slides move die parts out of the way to let you remove the part from the tool. If you don't use slides, you need a lot of progressive dies which are are more expense too..

Then there is the metal stretch issue....

The material in the flare area of the fender must be stretched out a lot more than a regular fender which means the material of the flare will be a lot thinner where it bulges out... Or, it might tear in the overstretched areas and the tooling will never work right. A good mold designer could make an educated guess.

The current process is cost effective from a tooling standpoint, just more work in welding the flare. Removing a fender and rewelding a new one in place is a real royal pain and doing it right may be more difficult than welding on a flare....

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

Yes if the gts had been done in quantity 100,000 or so WAY beyond the 45 or so the factory produced, they certainly would have done a one piece fender flare.
Considering that there is some guy out there already making reproduction factory look flares for the fenders and that most people who do the conversions have good fenders to start, and the rigor of cutting off the complete fenders and quarter panels and welding on new ones, (believe me it is labor intensive to drill out spot welds and get those things off!) and that the tooling for four quarters would be over 100,000 (tooling for the steel flares was over 50,000) I think that NO ONE would take on a project like this. Would be better to tool up for stock fenders and quarter panels, if someone was going to do it, but the cars are not worth enough yet, and there are still plenty of donors out there.

A fair point, however- in your extensive experience; I think we can safely say there are a few things the factory did that you would have done differently..am I right? Certainly no successful manufacturer today would choose this method in volume. Prototype, yes. Effective on thousands of vehicles, yes. Difficult for individual owners and as compared to formed fenders- Not the most precise method and technique probably.
George, do you feel this fender has merit- not with-standing cost or actual method?
If so; it is method justified by cost, qualified by market demand present.
But first, a steel formed fender is feasible, is it not? (from a technical standpoint-not cost) Would it produce superior results? Thanks -Jzn

and if they were going to be made the factory would have made them instead of a stock fender and then a fender flare. Even the GTS that the factory made were cut and the flares welded on!

[PanelBilly]

You'd be taking away a big part of the fun.

[JazonJJordan]

Thank you for the insight in the issues that seems to make this another untenable solution to a wish that could seem so simple-oh well~
Perhaps a solution will cast its shadow in a future light.
Time will tell. Thanks guys-

It's gonna be really $$pendy for the dies to form the parts and for the parts in a limited volume. First, to form sheet metal, it takes a big assed press. The bigger the part, the bigger the press

Second, that front fender is a very complex shape which means that it will take a forming die with a lot of $$pendy slides or a series of progressive forming dies to form the different features. Slides in any tools are costly as slides in forming dies must be very strong and very costly. Slides move die parts out of the way to let you remove the part from the tool. If you don't use slides, you need a lot of progressive dies which are are more expense too..

Then there is the metal stretch issue....

The material in the flare area of the fender must be stretched out a lot more than a regular fender which means the material of the flare will be a lot thinner where it bulges out... Or, it might tear in the overstretched areas and the tooling will never work right. A good mold designer could make an educated guess.

The current process is cost effective from a tooling standpoint, just more work in welding the flare. Removing a fender and rewelding a new one in place is a real royal pain and doing it right may be more difficult than welding on a flare....

[JazonJJordan]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yeh, I know, just trying to seek a better end. Thanks-

You'd be taking away a big part of the fun.

[JazonJJordan]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif) Oh well, there- I just nearly doubled our national deficit...worth it? No, not yet- if ever. Thanks for the insightful advice. -I'll keep wishing however- (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) Jzn

Yes if the gts had been done in quantity 100,000 or so WAY beyond the 45 or so the factory produced, they certainly would have done a one piece fender flare.
Considering that there is some guy out there already making reproduction factory look flares for the fenders and that most people who do the conversions have good fenders to start, and the rigor of cutting off the complete fenders and quarter panels and welding on new ones, (believe me it is labor intensive to drill out spot welds and get those things off!) and that the tooling for four quarters would be over 100,000 (tooling for the steel flares was over 50,000) I think that NO ONE would take on a project like this. Would be better to tool up for stock fenders and quarter panels, if someone was going to do it, but the cars are not worth enough yet, and there are still plenty of donors out there.

A fair point, however- in your extensive experience; I think we can safely say there are a few things the factory did that you would have done differently..am I right? Certainly no successful manufacturer today would choose this method in volume. Prototype, yes. Effective on thousands of vehicles, yes. Difficult for individual owners and as compared to formed fenders- Not the most precise method and technique probably.
George, do you feel this fender has merit- not with-standing cost or actual method?
If so; it is method justified by cost, qualified by market demand present.
But first, a steel formed fender is feasible, is it not? (from a technical standpoint-not cost) Would it produce superior results? Thanks -Jzn

and if they were going to be made the factory would have made them instead of a stock fender and then a fender flare. Even the GTS that the factory made were cut and the flares welded on!

[davep]

and if they were going to be made the factory would have made them instead of a stock fender and then a fender flare.

I have spoken with someone who worked at the factory and worked on a die or dies to make the complete fender with flare. They had some difficulty getting it to work. It may not have produced many parts.