SERIOUS THINKING HERE

Been thinking of this for some time, and now Mikey burned up his 944
Complete fire system is exxxppppenssssiiiivvve, and I don't race.

Could it be as simple as a cockpit extinguiser with a hose replacement to a steel line going through the firewall, and a restaurant grill spray head inside the engine compartment? Pull the pin inside the car, squeeze the handle, and it dumps into the engine compartment.

OK. Who works for a fire protection equipment co and can chime in on this idea?

Group Project...everyone get out their colored paper, sissors, and rulers, and come up with a design.

No Joke. This needs serious thought guys. Bill

As you might have guessed, this has been on my mind too. I'm contemplating retrofitting my engine compartment with a CO2 system and a hard mounted tank. Had I had someting like this to cover the fuel rail I know the damage would not have been as bad. The issue is mounting a bottle large enough to be effective and how to arm, and fire the system. I'm thinking it could be pretty simple, and I feel much better about CO2 than Halon or chemical, and they are corrosive and highly toxic. I do have a few ideas, but I think that at this point I'm putting a hand held CO2 extinguisher in my 914.

Halon is now gone, the new systems are aqueous( ok my spelling stinks).. They are now refillable and have cheapened up enough to be able to use two botlles. One engine only, one for u and the gas tank. Start up fire system is about $400..
Thats with hoses, spray heads and safty switch..

I havent looked for awhile, stopped racing, but the insurance that these afford Im thinking thats not a bad price to pay.. Long term one is going in to my car.


http://www.saferacer.com/ess-23-liter-afff...l?productid=550

No need to make your own the fire system products are very reasonable.
this is the one i have in my car that sells for 325.00.


http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productse...sp?Product=2426

Just a note, but CO2 is toxic too.

Most everyone considers it to just be an asphixiant, but it indeed is toxic and at certain levels is known to be immediately hazardous to life and health.

Hi Bill!
I still have my Halon system and consider either it, or AF worth the investment, even for a street car. Considering what it cost me to build my scruffy old car, it's well worth the money. I would never be without at least a 2.5lb bottle in the car. I had a BMW burn up on me (to the ground) and a 5lb bottle did nothing. The fire truck got there way too late.

I have a hand-held bottle between on the tunnel by my right hand and will use it first. If that fails to put out the fire, then the 11lb bottle in the front trunk will have to come into play.




There are three nozzles plumbed into the permanent system. The largest nozzle points at MY CROTCH from under the steering column. There are two more nozzles as well, one above and to the side of the fuel cell pump and filter. That one is pointed into the center of the front trunk.



The third nozzle is suspended over the engine and pointing down on it. I figure that's about as much as I can do!

I have delt with this company for a long time. We put about 30 of the systems on CNC machine tools. The company used oil with cutting Ti and had about a fire every other month. First fire went from 30-40K to fix down to 8K. The machine was up and running 3 days later vs. 1-2 months. We got the unit with a pressure switch built in, so you could wire your fuel pump through it so if the suppression system went off it would instantly shut down the fuel pump.

http://www.safecraft.com/index.asp

Do these systems have temprature auto discharge along with manual handle? Ie. Can it sense a fire before we can?
Great info.

Yes they do, built in to the head. In fact the systems in the shop have always discharged before the operator even realized the machine was burning. You do have the option of Push or Pull cable, and the bottle can be remote mounted or the manual override can be remote mounted.

sound like a good idea but,

if my car is on fire and the rusted firewall is the only thing keeping me from burning... i am not going to hold the handle of the fire extinguisher. i am gettin outa there

if my car is on fire and the rusted firewall is the only thing keeping me from burning... i am not going to hold the handle of the fire extinguisher. i am gettin outa there

[/quote]


But if it's an automatic one with the nozzle in the bay, you probably won't even realize there was a fire and just wonder why the dam engine quit !

I had one operator after a fire (he didn't even know the machine had lit off) spend three hours trying to figure out why the machine wouldn't power back up. When he called me, I told him to replace the fire bottle and he was up and running. Now these machines hold 30 gallons of light oil, at 3000 PSI pressure for cutting. S o once they go they go. One of them even burned a hole through the roof of the building some 30 ft up.

Oh, BTW if anyone is interested I know the engineer from that company. I could bring my car to him to mock up a 914 one. I can't afford one right now but i'd be willing to help.

If you have a fire (that's anything bigger than a little tiny puddle of fuel/oil), a hand held bottle ain't gonna do it. A full fire system is the way to go. I think the new AF (aqueous foam) systems are quite good. Nice thing is, they're non-toxic, and non-corrosive. The dry chemical powder ABC extinguishers that you get over the counter can be corrosive to aluminum, especially under heat. They'll put out the fire if it isn't big, but they'll leave an awful mess. And the O2 displacing systems (CO2 and Halon etc.) are asphixiants. Not such a big deal in the engine bay, but a big deal in the passenger compartment. Also, Halon really only works in a confined space. Once the breeze hits it, it blows away and there's nothing left to keep the fire from restarting. At least with CO2, it cools everything down so you're not likely to re-ignite when the CO2 blows away. But you don't want it blasting on the driver without risking serious cold-related injuries. And CO2 requires a large volume to be effective, so you'd be hauling around a really frickin' big bottle to do the job.

My personal philosophy if I were to install a fire system would be as follows...

1) Protect the driver. If the car's a burning, I'm a runnin'. Pull that handle as soon as you can to get that extra couple of seconds to GET THE HECK OUTTA THE CAR. Definitely have at least one nozzle for the passenger area.

2) Mitigate the fire. Since the fuel tank and the engine are on opposite sides of the driver, I'd probably want one nozzle in front and two in the engine bay.

If the system can't defeat the blaze, the least it should do is give you enough time to... say it with me... GET THE HECK OUTTA THE CAR.

I like the idea of tying in the fuel pump to the fire system, so if it discharges the fuel pump is immediately killed.

I don't know about automatic fire systems in a car. It can get awfully hot in an engine compartment when everything's running just fine. I think if you were to put in a thermal sensor that had that high a trip point (to prevent a false trip), you would (or should) have already bailed by the time it goes off...

-Josh2

The Halon (according to the engineer) was perfectly safe for confined areas. ( that's why the use it in server rooms etc). I'm not an expert by any means on this though. One nice thing about the Halon, no mess to clean up after. The CNC's spray hot oil everywhere, the only accidental discharge was from a operator "aligning" something with a BFH and knocked the head clean off, aluminum guard and all. He got fired.

"perfectly safe"? If the CNC has an enclosed compartment, and that's where the discharge is, sure. It's safe. But if there's an operator in the space where the Halon discharges, they better be wearing an air tank and mask. The way Halon works is that it inhibits the reaction of the fire. Not only is it an asphixiant, but Halon is -toxic- to people. It's perfectly safe for electronics though, which is why is was an ideal extinguishant for computer rooms and the like.

-Josh2

Ok, if it is over 5% you are correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halon_1211

And if you're in an enclosed space (the only way Halon really works), it's VERY easy to exceed that 5%...

-Josh2

I would use an aqueous foam system like Josh described. Unless you are at the track racing and there is a fire engine ready to go, they usually show up too late. I am that nozzle jockey who wants to spray your aluminum block engine with 125psi of water.
Protect your investments with an on-board system!

Scarry thing is that the hand help extinguishers used in the aircraft I fly are Halon, and we've been cautioned they are toxic, but if you have to use it your allready in real trouble.

I think the fuel pump kill is a perfect addition to any system. I'm in favor of more of an aircraft style system. I master caution annouces the possible fire, and arms the sqib, you then push the button to fire the system. This could be done in zones so that if you have an engine fire your not getting any into the cockpit, but it's only to the troubled area. A dual squib system would also allow for a secondary to be fired to continue to supress the fire after the initial, it's a slower discharge and is used to keep the fire from reigniting until help is available. This is how our cargo holds are set up.

I think there's some really great ideas that could be intigrated into a "smart" system.

The RV people have also had their issues with fires, between onboard generators and propane fired appliances.

The most commonly used fire system is a Halon automatic system. They go off in the affected compartment automatically when the temp gets high enough. My GMC has one in the generator compartment, another in the engine compartment, and a third one behind the propane fired refrigerator. In addition, I have a handheld halon extinguisher mounted in the coach by the door.

I agree, if it's on fire, get out first! I have always carried halon extinguishers in my Porsches. A simple bracket in front of the seats allows it to be mounted out of the way and still easily reachable. It's Murphy's Law that if you have an extinguisher, you will never have a fire!

In my experience, there are only two uses for a small bottle mounted in the passenger compartment of the car.

1) Grab-Pull-Squeeze. Spray it around you so you get a couple extra seconds to GET THE HECK OUTTA THE CAR.

2) Go help put out a fire on someone else's rig... One little bottle is very likely not going to extinguish a blaze. But it might be of help combined with others...

For a while I carried a handheld Halon bottle in my car. But the reality is, a little Halon bottle isn't gonna be of much good. In order to get it where it needs to go, you need to get it IN to the engine compartment. And I sure as heck am not gonna open the lid to that...

A handheld Halon might be good to... again, repeat after me... GET THE HECK OUTTA THE CAR. Grab the bottle, take a deep breath, pull the pin, squeeze, spray, and get going.

-Josh2

All i can say is the Halon 1211 put out the fire quick. The machines all had 600CFM mist collectors on them and they worked every time. I don't know how easy it would be to exceed 5% inside the cabin unless you discharged a whole bottle inside the car with the windows up. They do use these inside race cars and airplanes currently but a dual discharge system would start adding up way too fast. I don't think this thread was how much can we spend on a super cool system, rather how little could we get away with and do a reasonable job. It was also asked for experience or someone who has worked for or with a company who produces these devices. I have worked with the engineer and the company to produce these 30 units we put in. Its easy do put these in for sure, the small Halon bottle with the auto nozzle can be mounted in the engine bay and the remote push/pull in the cabin. The pressure switch was mounted between the nozzle and the head with an automotive sealed connector. The switch had a N.O. contact and a N.C. contact, so an alarm buzzer could be hooked up with the fuel pump shut off. I have ZERO stake in this company, so i don't really care. I only volunteered my car as a guinea pig so the engineer could build or recommend a system that would work FOR OUR CARS. Not some "generic" system bough from a internet site.

AF is pretty much the recommended system for race cars these days, and airplanes (at least military and commercial ones) all provide the pilot(s) with O2 and masks.

Don't get me wrong, I think Halon kicks a** for killing fires in an enclosed space. But it's not so people friendly.

I've also been a "nozzle jockey" myself in the past, and I'm a big fan of whatever works the best and safest. Not all systems are equal, and some are better for some things, and not for others.

If I install a system in my car, it'll be AF (or FFFP to be specific). Toxicity and stuff aside, Halon is also expensive to recharge.

-Josh2

True, the Halon bottles to get recharged I think was 50 bucks. For all that are thinking about these types of system, not all of them can be recharged. Some have the nozzle epoxied on to the bottle, so it's a whole new system time if it discharges. I think the Firebottle brand was one of these types. Just something to watch out for. Just my .02

I am a fire protection engineer specializing in race cars and aircraft, but we also do machine tools and other niche markets. We primarily do Halon { 1211 and 1301} but we also do the Halon Replacement agents,eg FE-36, FE-227, FE-25 etc. and water based foam/surfactants.

I have read most of the comments over the last few days, and observe quite a lot of misinformation.

We have several off-the-shelf products to satisfy protection for a 914. Some fully automatic, many manually operated, and some both.

don4

Hello Don, why does that name sound familiar? could it be your in Concord ? Does Autocam sound familiar to you by chance?

10BC hand held bottles aren't worth a shit if you have a real fire. When my racecar caught fire there were 10-12 empty hand helds laying on the ground within a couple of minutes and my car was still burning.

Yep! Been There, Done That. We had an RX-3 go "kawoosh" a number of years ago, and we probably emptied 15-20 hand held bottles to little or no avail. The two 75 lb C02 bottles that got there right after were enough to knock it down so when the big truck came it was enough to completely extinguish.

Watching someone you know dive out of the car and roll on the ground while the car is still moving (and blazing) is more than enough incentive to go out and buy a good fire suit.

-Josh2

There was a place on line that sold used NASCAR parts. I picked up a 5lb Halon 1201 unit that was new for $150. It came with the handle, cable steel line and nosle.