This weekend, Dr. Evil pointed out the front end shaking on my car on the drive to the transmission clinic. I have gotten so used to it, i don't really notice it anymore.

It's much better with freshly balanced wheels, but after two or three removals of the wheels, the shake is back. And i switch wheels a lot as i have different sets for street driving and AX/track use.

I'm using used spacers front/rear, one thick one plus a thinner one on each corner. They're clean but most certainly have markings from years of use.

I always torque the wheels to the same amount in a cross pattern, but like i said, the shake comes back after two or three removals.

So the question is, should i have the spacers resurfaced and possible balanced? The overall width of the spacing is probably about 1 1/2" ...

Andy

One spacer, properly balanced and held on with countersunk nuts may solve the problem.

Tires also get out of balance really fast...like two months..
Check your wheels at a store that can do it on a lug centric balancer, not a center hub balancer...unless of course your spacer is built for hub centric wheels...which its not.

Rich

Held on to what? Huh?

Are the spacers the same diameter at the mounting face of the brake rotor?

I would find it hard to believe that the spacers are so beat up that they need resurfacing. But if you can get them done accurately and cheap , do it....As for balancing, those spacers..1.5 inches thick...do have enough weight to cause an out of balance condition. If you can find a "bubble balancer", wheel balancer you can balance them individually....by removing some material ....until balancing is accomplished. then they can be used on any wheel position w/o a negative impact. There MAY be something else to consider. The wheel stud holes are so wallowed out / the spacer is so loose that it really will never balance because it "falls down" on the bottom studs, offsetting the spacer every time you R/R the wheel Even if the spacer is not removed. The best spacers are tight spacers. You could ''close up the holes" slightly...just around the edge of the stud holes....as long as there is ample flat surface for the wheel to mate too. You might consider bonding the TWO seperate spacers together before balancing. Typically and intresting is that wheel spacers normally do not effect wheel balance. You must have some very offset wheels, which puts the spacers into the rotating mass of the wheels and tires. ....suggestions to consider

Studs.

Try balancing your wheels using the lug centric machine..most likely that is the issue.

Let me see if i have some pikks ...

I'm using two spacers per wheel because my track wheels need different spacing than my street wheels.

The inner, thicker spacer always stays the same, the outer, thinner spacer is different in width depending on the wheels used.

Spacers:


Hub:

Yes. Genuiwhine Porsche spacers, the overall fitment seems OK ...

They do have the ridge in the center which i assumed is to get the wheel centered when bolted down. No?

I thought of that and checked them, they're actually tight and don't have any play on the studs. They're not of the "one size fits all" type you see on some of the usual parts sites ...

....good grief...most of the obvious problems you;re aware of.....So whats the process for balancing your wheels.?...how do you go about it?..how do you go from balanced wheels, too, unbalanced wheels "after removing them a few times"?...Another obvious question/answer...do you check the front wheel bearings adjustment periodically/ enough?....

see if you can find a tire store that uses a lug centeric balancing jig versus the hub centric setup.

basically its a porsche hub that bolts to the machine. This hub is perfectly balanced and centered on the hub.
You then mount your wheel to that using the lugs.
It does a more realistic balancing...

I would suspect that with the ovaling of the spacer holes, there would be no easy way to center that wheel on the hub.

Rich

I've never seen a balancing machine that uses the lug holes.

So you think the wheel studs are not in a circle? You would have to oval all 5 holes in both spacers to somehow manage to get the spacer off center.
Andy

nope, I have had this happen before....on a super beetle.
The issue is that the wheel is not perfectly balanced on the center hole.
Its perfectly balance on the lugs. I think that its made this way.

Ask around at a decent tire shop, its pretty typical at a good tire shop to have a lug centric balancing system. Call the porsche dealer, they should be able to point you at someone, or call Brad...I am sure he knows someone. A good tire shop is typically a single shop, not a chain.
the machine and jigs cost more.

When I finally found a place up here, we balanced the superbeetle wheels...stock wheels, stock skinny tires...wobble went away.

I felt like I took a full semester class regarding how to balance a wheel and how fast the rubber gets out of balance...etc etc.
I learned alot...and the net was that using a lug centric balancer, even better is one with a load (porsche dealers have these) is the best way to do it.

Any tire guy that has used the system that mounts on the lugs and puts the live load on the wheel/tire to balance the tire will agree that the center balance tire machines are worthless.

Again, this is from learning and asking and getting a superbeetle to stop wobbling...

Im not a tire guy, but everything I learned made alot of sense.

Rich

You also have to keep in mind that the further you space out the wheel the more amplified any minor variance will be. If your hub or spacer isn't perpendicular to the center of the spindle you'll notice it.

Could your steering rack be worn?

Then why would the shake go away with freshly balanced wheels?
Andy

I'm curious when they rebalance the wheels how much are they adding/changing? Is it really that much? I think ya sure if its balanced perfectly and the road is smooth you won't have any shake. I think the slightly off balance wheels cause will cause a worn steering rack to modify what is happening at the wheel/road. What wears on these racks? On center where the rack and pinion meet and most of its time is spent (driving straight). Does the wheel shake on a constant radius turn when it is held in the same position? Do these wear on the ends of the rack between the rack and the housing? Ive never rebuilt one of these, but my car suffers from the same thing and I have 6x16 with 1/4" spacers. My rack has 157k. Yours is from that unknown Carrera? I have a spare rack with a definite 86k miles if you'd like to temporarily borrow it and see if it fixes yours. I have not had the time or desire to try.

Andy

The shake is only in a straight line, think cruising on the freeway.
And only at certain speeds. Around 60mph is the worst. Below that is fine. After 90mph is fine ...
No shake at all under load in corners.


It really feels like unbalanced wheels, however, the fact that it changes with me removing the wheels and bolting them back on is what pointed my towards the spacers in the first place.

I can't think of any other plausible explanation why removing a wheel and putting it back on should make a difference.

I think i try to find a place to have them spacers resurfaced and see what that does ...
Andy

maybe screw them together also...

Rich

It would require the spacers to be significantly out of spec to cause a vibration considering the small OD compared to the wheel/tire diameter.

We have a customer with 4 bolt Fuchs alloys who kept complaining of a vibration at the rear of his car. It was always at the back no matter which way we re-arranged the wheels on the car, or how many times he had the tires re-balanced.
I was slightly surprised when we discovered that there is enough play in the lug holes of the wheels that they can easily be mounted a full 1/16" off center on the rear hubs and the bolts don't pull them into the center when being tightened.
The final solution was to make Delrin rings for the rear that ensure the wheel is always mounted on center.
So our newest product is hub centering rings for 4 bolt factory alloy wheels.

On my rsx, I am now running 25mm spacers with my forged desmonds. They actually bolt onto the stock studs, then have their own studs. That I guess basically helps keeps it better aligned on hub. I heard that this is better than just extended studs on hub, and running a lugcentric spacer that way. I'm not sure if they do that for the porsche, or if it actually helps, but I don't have a wheel balance issue either.

it could very well be just the tires get out of balance as well

...well andy I asked a couple questions...which were not addressed....I am resonably sure that the problem IS...you got big fat wide tires. you probably vary your air pressure some, from street to autocrossing.(this is not the problem)....THE PROBLEM IS ...YOU NEED TO HAVE THE TIRES SHAVED....to get them round. Out of round tires, ARE most noticable in a stright line. with varing loads, with the side wall flexing , as in autocrossing, or hard cornoring on the TRACK, out of roundness is not noticable. IN A STRIGHT LINE IT IS......GET ALL THE TIRES SHAVED. watch and see how much "shaving "is necessary. the amount of rubber removed , will easily be , the amount of weight necessary to balance the wheel. It will just fracture your head. ANOTHER problem is that the tire and rim may need to be "rotated" relative to each other. Deflating the tire...and rotating 30-90 degrees...is what some tire experts will do. getting the best "fit"... roundness.......BEFORE SHAVING...AND always shave the tires with precisly the air pressure you are going to use...shaving tires is something I always did when I was racing. IT,s good for .5 to 1 seciond a lap. and the chassis , suspension ,and tires work together to make the car handle sooooo much better, the Tires work better and have slightly lower temperatures...............after you do this you.ll know your a genus/guneus/ guwineess/ genus/ ginious ......Oh crap.....SMART....ITS GENIUS....

I wonder if you just jack up the car, take the load off the susp then drive it...bearings, tie rod end, ball joints tight?

I have the same issue Andy ? I`m thinking bearings in my car...when i change wheels i try to torque them a little at a time in the proper pattern like you said ..I rotate the wheel as im finger tighting the lugs ,then go 40psi and then 95psi before i put the car on the ground....Imo its got nothing to do with the spacers...of course let use know what you find

bad idea

shaved tires(old school) always work better and the grooves are not as tall so they dont rollover as bad ,,,,,But i dont see them going out of balance in just a month or two unless you flat spot them from locking down on the breaks...It a mistery to me as well Andy. Im doing all new bearings and bushing this winter we will see what happens

I have this problem all the time with my 71 w/o centering hub. I can see the difference if I don't pick the tire up when tightening the lugs. There is a noticeable difference.

What I have to do to get a non-vibrational ride is just before I re tighten the lugs, I lower the car til the tire barely touches the floor. Then I spin the tire and if off-center, it will hit the floor in one place. I adjust until the tire hits in a couple of places.

This goes in with ME733's comment about shaving the tire to get it round. Try the test above when mounting tires and see if the tire hits in only one place.

Also try spinning the wheel when raised and see if the tread "bounces" when looking at one place as the wheel spins.

Question and sorry if you've answered this. When the tire is being mounted and the lugs are on but not tightened, can you move the wheel around on the hub like I described above?

Here in PA, we have lots of potholes to bend rims on. My A6 and A4 had all 4 rims with dents.

The characteristic ride is that a some low speed, there is a vibration that goes away at higher speeds.

I've had to pound out many rims to get a good ride.

About your comment, if a wheel/tire is truly out of balance weight-wise, it should get worse and worse as speed is increased. No way should an out-of-balance weight-wise wheel get better at higher speeds.

I chased the balance on some fake Fuchs for a year before realizing that the one wheel was out of round.

I would put an indicator on the face of the spacers. With the tire/rim sticking out way past the edge of the spacers, any out of parallel is going to be amplified a lot.

I have this same problem as well, around 60-65mph I get intermittent vibration. Brand new tires(Bridgestone RE-01R) and refinished cookie cutters that I had balanced at a local shop. I do not have a hubcentric lip on the rotors any longer so I am very careful when tightening lug nuts(slowly working my way around in a star pattern).

When I originally refinished the wheels I spun all twelve cookie cutter wheels and made sure that the 4 that I was refinishing were not bent or out of round. I have since replaced tie rods, wheel bearings to take that out of the equation and then checked the ball joints and steering rack for any problems but they were fine. The problem still persisted. At the urging of my dad and another race shop owner I checked balance of the wheels again. They were way out of balance which means the shop down the street fucked up. So, I had them balanced again and since then the wobble has been much less but it can still come and go. Because I am still having a little problem, I think that maybe the cookie cutter wheels should not be balanced using the hub center but should be balanced using a lug centric. Believe it or not, I have yet to find anyone that has a setup to balance lug centric using the porsche 5x130.

If anyone knows of a shop in Seattle area that has a lug centric dynamic wheel balancer with a 5x130 adapter let me know

Kyle

no kidding ..I would give that a try

Yeah, I actually drive my car less because I get tired of the steering wheel shaky deal.

Also, If you want to check if your tires are out of round you can try Dependable Wheel and tire in Renton. I have used them to have my tires shaved(tire truing) but that was for race tires. They have a machine that can shave the tire while on the car so its pretty easy.

Kyle

They do but those are illegal with most racing organizations.
Andy

I checked the wheel bearings twice in the last 4 weeks. All seems fine.
I checked the tie-rods and rack for play, nada.


The tires being out of round is a possibility, but keep in mind i'm talking about my street tires. They're fairly new, off the shelf 225x50x15, not some large racing slicks.
Andy

That's another thing i haven't checked ...
Andy

Andy,
Maybe I missed it but what are your street wheels?

Kyle

Andy,
I check my race wheels pretty often because they bend pretty easy. Its pretty easy, turn your front wheels to almost full lock in one direction and then jack up that side of the car. On the front wheel make a simple "Run out" tool with a jack stand and ruler or something. Move the ruler to the edge of the wheel and then spin the wheel and see if there are any bends or wobbles. Don't forget to check the inside of the wheel too. I usually then swap the rear wheel to the front at that point and check the rear wheel too. Switch sides and repeat. Out of 3 sets of Cookie Cutters I have 1 set of really straight wheels, 1 set of pretty good and 4 wheels that I should probably throw away or see if I can have straightened(they are pretty bad).

Kyle

Andy, we should have thrown my Boxster wheels on just to see if the shake goes away.

7x15 cookie cutters ...

Andy

Now there's a thought ...
Andy

When I started running spacers on my stock, 4 lug Fuch's I had to very slowly and methodically sneak up on the torque to get them to center. Otherwise it shook like crazy...

I went 5 rounds or so sneaking up on the torque.

It was still a sweet ride

Yeah, even with the extra 300lbs of weight i had to schlepp around ...
Andy

Andy,

I would suggest you start with the basics. Remove the wheels and spacers, and check your hubs for runout and wobble with a dial indicator. Also verify ther are no dings on the hub surface that would affect the flatness. As suggested in a previous post, use a dial indicator on the mounted spacer and check for wobble on the face, and runout on the hub centric shoulder. Follow that by mounting the tire and check both the rim and the tire for eccentricity, wobble, of a bend in the rim. You can do this exercise in reverse order if you wish.

One final "old school" method would be to balance the tires while mounted on the car. Few shops do this anymore, but they're out there if you ask around. They basically use a motorized set of rollers and place under the wheel to spin them. This eliminates the possibility of the rotor causing an out of balance problem, but remember to put an alignment mark somewhere so that you always mount the wheel and rotor back in that original position.

Andys

really? I did not know that. care to explain (i havnt raced since I got these, but I do know project kic's, H&R, eibach, etc do the same thing for spacers)



I heard it was supposed to reduce it from shimming or something

This is what I use to check the dents on wheels. It works best when the edge type wheel weights are used. If stick-on weights are used near the end of the rim then it really complicates using the gauge.

Usually just the inside of the wheel is dented since most modern wheels have the webbing near the outside of the wheel.

With this gauge, even the slightest run-out will be noticeable.

The wheels on my A6 were so bad that the dash would vibrate around 45-55 mph, then settle down above 70 mph. Once a wheel was straightened I would get all wheels rebalanced.

BTW, I will only buy tires at places that offer lifetime balancing.

I just straightened the wheels on my A4 but haven't gone back for rebalancing yet. Now the wheels are straight, the out-of-balance vibrations get worse as I go faster.

Here's a thought,

Mebbe it's something simple like an angular tolerance stackup....

Since you have 2 spacers, it may be that in some positions, the combo of the 2 spacers hold the wheel at an angle to the axis of revolutioin.

Think of each spacer like a washer.... Take each one and sand it a little on one donut shaped face so that the front and rear surfaces of the washer are slightly angled- ie not exactly parallel. That's a part tolerance in one direction

Now put the two washers together. Since the front and rear faces of each washer aren't parallel, the odds are the combo won't be parallel either.....

Here's the key, depending on how you rotate the washers, you can either dial in parallel surfaces or non-parallel (wheel at an angle shaking condiiton) surfaces..

Getting the spacer combos identified balanced and marked would defininitely help. Try calipers for measuring stackups at different positions. Look for score marks (can cause tipping ) on surfaces.

That's a good thought.

tape a sharp pencil to a step ladder or milk crate so it will just touch the outer rim.
Spim the wheel while moving the pencil in towards the wheel till you hear it touch.

If you hear a rhythm...something is not straight.

this method is fast to check for a wheel that is not round
should also check for spacers that are not right.
Rich