I just picked up my car from McMark's shop today. Original Customs for the uninformed. I had him install the Engman Kit I got in the last group buy. I had heard the stories of door gaps shrinking and things not lining up and that is why I gave this job to Mark. My car is a 70K mile preservation and I am only the second owner. The door gaps were perfect going in and perfect coming out.

Nice work Mark! If you are thinking of doing this, I highly recommend Mark and if you are too far away, definitely ask how he did this. His method worked without any body warping...

Thanks!

Just took the car off the trailer and took a drive in the rain. Definitely stiffens the chassis. Slow speed over speed bumps are the tell... Mark took some pictures, maybe he will share.

Don't hold your breath on the pictures though Jeff. Mark is married now. Allison owns his ass until Tuesday and even then his leash only reaches to the shop He works Tuesday through Saturday... We will see how soon he can sneak away

Rob - Maybe it's just the way I'm reading it but I think you need to change the title of your post. It makes it sound like there is something wrong with Engman's kit which is not the issue.

When metal is heated (as in welding) it will stretch and then as it cools it shriks. If a concentrated amount of time is spent applying a lot of heat to one area it will create problems. That is not a result of a poorly manufactured kit, that is is problem of a poorly educated installer.

That is why it says "a bad install". The problem isn't with the kit, in fact Mark sounded a little puzzled by how others were getting that bad result. The fact remains, if I installed or had my kit installed and my door gaps were suddenly bad, it would be a horror story. A reasonable person who reads what I wrote would understand that the problem is not with the kit. I didn't really write it for people who just scan the title.

Word association - the phrase 'horror stories' directly preceded by Engman kit does make it sound as if the issue is with the kit itself, contrary to the subject matter.

Isn't that similar to a Sam Kinnesan routine?

Anytime you do that amount of welding on a chassis you need to brace the s#!t out of it, glad yours turned out nice and straight! I used more tubing in the chassis braces for my cage than in the cage itself.

I have installed a few Engman products and have been very happy with them. I installed the inner long kit a few months ago. I made braces for the doors after removing them, drilled out all the holes to 5/8" and used compressed air to cool down after each weld. I found that drilling the holes bigger made for a larger weld area and a stronger weld. It worked out great for me. Your results may vary but the quality of Engman products is very good.

Rob, I reworded you title slightly. Not that you were wrong, but I think mine is slightly clearer.

I installed the kit with no additional bracing or support, with the car sitting on its wheels. There was absolutely no warping and no change in the door gaps.

I 'dry fit' the kit to make sure everything looked and fit exactly how I wanted it. I then modified two drill bits to prepare each hole for the rosette weld. One drill bit passed through the hole to clear the paint from the long, the other cleared the E-Coat from the kit. I'll post pictures of those modified drill bits and pictures of the install on Tuesday. I also used self tapping sheet metal screws to secure and pull the kit into place.

I took my time doing the installation and prepped three or four holes at a time, welded them, waited a bit, then repeated. Took me about 15 hours to remove the interior, prep everything, weld, grind, paint, and reinstall the interior.

It's important for me to mention that the Engman Kit fits absolutely perfectly. I didn't have to tweak, modify, or otherwise manipulate his parts. They dropped right into place. And as long as you work SLOW and METHODICALLY you have no danger of warping the chassis. Rushing and welding too much, too fast are easy mistakes to make and WILL cause problems. Prepping all the welds ahead of time is a mistake that will encourage you to weld too fast. I also welded starting at one end and work consistently towards the other. I figure that jumping from one end to the other can 'trap' stress in the long. My thinking is that if you make a weld, and that heat distorts the metal, if you make another weld farther away while the original metal is in an 'altered state', your second weld will 'trap' and lock the metal into that 'altered state'. By keeping the welds together, I think you'll keep the 'trapping' to a minimum.

Pictures on Tuesday.

Thank you. I was shocked when I first read it. A new guy that isn't familiar with the quality of Engman's products may read it the wrong way. Even still might for that matter IMO. Also, the secondary title entry is often overlooked, especially when reading the forum index.

The Engman inner long kit installed in my 914-6 is of excellent craftsmanship. Only a cheesy install would cause an installation to warp the tub.

Looking forward to seeing the modified drill bits Mark.

The purpose of the thread is to show how a good install can avoid the horrors of finding your chassis has warped. I doubt John (fourblades) or others who have had chassis warpage appreciate having their install being called "cheesy". Most of John's work on that car is closer to art. My purpose in having starting this thread is to make sure others don't have the same problems. I want to make sure people know the dangers of an install that is not mindful of this possibility.

No one is questioning the quality of the Engman product. Certainly not me! I paid good money for it. I wouldn't have done that if I questioned the quality or the utility. Mark changed one word in the primary title and a couple in the secondary. I re-edited it so the secondary title was actually a proper sentence. Anyone who carefully read what I said and clarified in my third post would know that I was not in any way calling the Engman product quality into question. Perhaps if you were shocked you could have carefully reread it. That is what I do when I read something that shocks me. I often find that I got the meaning wrong.

It was a generalization of the worst extreme. I certainly was not referring to any specific person or install. But if their tubs warped while installing this kit then something probably wasn't done properly. They'll probably be the first to admit that. But not having any detail or knowledge of the issues they encountered during their installations I can't say for sure either way.

Regardless, it's pretty obvious that I'm not the only one that thought your original title might be misleading. It does read much better now. Thanks for the edit(s).

We don't use any bracing when installing the Engman kits.
Nor do we use any bracing when installing a roll cage.
We never have a problem with chassis warpage.
Our roll cage kits come with instructions that, when followed carefully, prevent the build-up of shrinkage stresses.
I had a customer call to ask how to adjust his door gap after completing the cage installation so I asked if he had followed the instructions. He said there were no instructions with the kit so I told him they were usually stapled to the invoice. While we were talking he looked in his files and found the invoice. Sure enough, the instructions were still attached.

If you just go nuts welding without understanding the effects, there will be unintended consequences.

I was hoping this thread would give some tips of what to do or what not to do but it seems to be more concerned with the wording of the title.

So what are the do's and don'ts of this kit? I have a kit waiting for me to finish some long repair then install the kit.

I know to keep the metal cool. Do I do a couple of welds at one end, then let it cool then do some welds on the other end?

I did a little searching after reading this post. Check out fourblades saga. It may answer some of your questions regarding dos and don'ts.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=94311&

That is my sincere hope. Let's hope they are done with that now...

See my post above. I wrote quite a bit about exactly how I did it. If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to elaborate.

I wish now I had taken some really careful before and after measurements when
I welded in my kit to see if that was the real cause or if I F-ed up the rear
passenger fender when I welded it back together. Looking back, I realize I
pieced the whole passenger door sill together from patches without ever test
fitting the door (dumb).

I did seam weld the heck of the kit, including all the edges where the sides join
the rear pieces and a lot of the top seams.

I bought two more kits when Mark had a group buy on them so I am definitely not
turned off them. I also bought the heavy duty Tangerine racing bracing set.
I will weld slower next time, start at one end and work along, and take more
time.

John

Glad that you had success where others have had trouble; trouble that's self induced if not careful.

Perfect fit is debatable IMO; some mis-fitting areas are inherent to the 914 chassis, and others are with the kit itself. Let me explain. I quickly discovered that the top surface of the longs is not flat (mine was slightly dished in some areas, and bowed out in others). This results in a gap between the long kit (which is flat) and the top of the long, which is not favorable to welding. The same is also true for the sides of the longs, though slightly less pronounced in my case. The bowed-out areas could be gently pounded flat with a rubber mallet. The kit doesn't fit or line up properly in several areas. The cutouts for the seatbelt anchors on mine did not line up, so I had to remove material. The inside of the long kit where the cutout is for the 914 crossbrace rests atop the flanged and spot welded area which resultantly lifts it off the surface causing an undesirable gap for welding. On the transverse piece at the firewall, it needs to be notched to allow the 914 floor rib to clear on both sides. There are some other minor areas, but those are the main spots that. I've got photos and was going to do an install write-up, but time did not permit.

As with others, I used TEK screws to fasten down the kit prior to welding. The paint had to first be removed in the local areas that need welding. I measured (using calipers) and documented my door gaps both before and after welding. Some shrinkage was noticed after a methodical and slow process similar to those previously described. I used a TIG welder which is favorable to minimizing the heat input, but would not recommend it due to its very tedious and slow progress and all the contortions and angles requiring two hands (one for the torch, the other for filler rod).

The Engman kit IMO is still a good kit, and would recommend it with the understanding that some file-to-fit areas may be necessary.

Andys

We all also need to consider that some of our problems could be related to almost 40 years of abuse and use of our 914 chassis. If you weld on a panel that has body putty in it, your heat shrink and warp will be diferent than a panel that is just metal.

I drove the car to work today and continue to be impressed with the feel of the chassis. This is a very worthwhile modification.

Again, my purpose in starting this thread is to illuminate the method McMark is using because as he said, he used absolutely no bracing, welded with the wheels on the ground etc...

Andys, when did you get your kit? Mark B (Engman) has revised the fitment throughout the production life. The newest set to arrive is the one mentioned in this thread and fits much much better than the one I got 3 or 4 years ago. Geez, has it really been that long?

I did the install mid 2008, so I'm guessing I took delivery not long before that.

Andys

Its funny. I work the same way Mark.
I plan my work so I have to stop and let it cool down while I prepare for the next setup. I also take my time...I did one major long over two days....just to keep welding slowly. There was plenty of other work to do....

Just funny that I am not the only one to plan busy work so I am not tempted to weld everything at once...

Rich

I disagree with that Andy. TIG typically causes more heat buildup because of the slowness of the process. MIG creates less heat in a given area. With MIG you can be finished with a weld more quickly and start cooling it sooner. Consequently the heat is not given an opportunity to spread out to a wider area.

Our procedure is considerably different than McMark's and we have no trouble with warpage either. We don't screw the panels in place temporarily, we don't work in linear fashion from one end to another, and we don't avoid pre-cleaning the weld locations.
I'm not suggesting that there is something wrong with Mark's method, but that it is only one of several successful procedures.
Key elements our methods share are careful prep & fitment, and progress slowly to avoid excess heat build up.

My way, is by no means the only way to achieve success. And TIG puts WAY too much heat into the long. MIG is quick. 1-2 seconds per weld.

Here's a few more details, with the promised picture.

The drill bit on the left is a 3/8" which has had the tip blunted off and a step ground into it. The center locates the bit in the hole and the step cleans the metal around the hole. I'm left with a 3/8" circular clean spot.

The drill bit on the right is an H drill bit which has had the tip blunted off almost completely. This bit is used to clean the metal on the sides of the hole as well as pass through the long kit and clean the metal on the chassis.

I used this technique because I feel it leaves the maximum amount of original paint on the chassis to protect the long from future rust as much as possible. The paint still burns off in the HAZ, though.

Have you heard of weld thru coatings? do they really do what they say? Who has found a solution for controlling rust in these circumstances?

I found the continuation of this thread very informative although the title is a little miss leading. I have used Engman Kit along with the Brad Mayeur kit on my 914-6 conversion. I also have used Racer Chris kits to stress the rear suspension points. I also used Rich Johnson mount and conversion kits for the engine. Other kits have been used from our different suppliers (always prefer to purchase from our member suppliers).

I have always found our 914 member suppliers make a quality product which meets our needs and shows detailed knowledge of our car needs.

Rember "gap measurements" are just general indicators and indicate problems such as sagging, door alignment, etc. Further investigation and measure are needed to correct possible problems.

I welded using a mig. I did spot and stitch welding on all my sheetmetal including the rear suspension attachments. I welded one to two inches and then went to another cold spot to weld. This is the method I applied and seemed to work.

I liked the comments on the difference between mig and tig. After all these are our professional people we depend on getting our cars modified and repaired.

I have the hight respect for all our suppliers.

These are my thoughts.
Steve Hurt

I haven't found a weld thru coating that didn't contaminate the weld.

You guys give lots of good info. I appreciate your input. If a person wanted to really know for his own education, he could use a temperature gun and shoot the weld and the area that is around it after both the mig and tig process. The fact that a tig weld will be so much smaller means that the heat is not in that spot as long as you might think. Remember the material is not very thick. Actually you could weld the edge of the hole to the long without any filler but it will not leave a completely filled in hole like you can get from the mig. I really don't know how much the long is heated either way but I will find out. The tig is much more awkard as I need to be a lot closer to the work than with mig and the mig is a lot more forgiving of contamination. I am pretty sure I would burn less paint off with the tig just from my experience on welding sheetmetal butted panels. The fact that I can start the tig with a higher amp then feather it back helps lower the heat a lot. Also though I only use .023 wire on my mig so it isn't as hot as .030 or .035. You can see both sides of most panels and get a good idea of how far the heat traveled. If the surfaces are not exactly flush the mig will fill that easily where the tig at that point will need filler rod and that would require stopping and starting which would extend the heat time if you wanted to keep going. I'm not sure as I haven't tried to weld the kit yet but I will try to use clamps to hold the stiffeners in place instead of screws. If I can't there is nothing wrong with welding the screw holes up when doing that hole. I know I will not be stitch welding the kit although if a edge is high I will tap it down and tack it with a weld about .750 inch long. It will get epoxy primered and seam sealed afterward. I will probably try to put a wax in the long when I'm through with all the welding on the long. One thing I do like about tig is there is so much less grinding because you only add filler when it is needed where thats the contact for the mig and also the wire shoots through the molten puddle and usually makes a blob on the back side. It's hard for me to not put too much metal down on sheetmetal with a wire feed. I do think the tig is three times slower than a mig if I'm adding filler but that doesn't mean I am holding the same heat on that spot as the mig for three times longer.

I don't claim to be a TIG guru, but rosette welding tiny holes doesn't seem like an appropriate use for TIG. IF you made the holes bigger and IF you could get the pieces perfectly flush, then maybe you could do it with less heat than MIG. But why go through all that extra work and PITA when MIG works?

The first time I had a mild steel exhaust pipe tube rust out at the weld or up against it impressed on me what really happened to steel when it is heated for welding. I agree a lot of really nice cars have been built with only a mig welder but also some really nice cars were built with the torch too.

I have thrown out alot of drill bits that look like that...

Rich