I agree that we need to preserve the history & nuances of ALL 914's.

I agree that we need a protected sub-forum here to do so.

I agree that the prior nailed topics concerning originality, though fairly thorough, need to be re-formatted to serve the needs of the "niche" 914 restorer/original-bent owner.

So., let's open the discussion right here, right now, on how to do so.

Here's what I (personally) would like to see - one stop shopping for every 914.

I currently have a 72 914 1.7. I don't need any help with knowing 72 914's, even though they went through metamorphosis during that year.

But, let's just say, I wanted to put the bucks towards a 72 914-6, or a 74 914 2.0, or any model 914. Where could I go for clear, concise info (from experts) for any of these cars? We have some current "nailed" topics for info regarding specific areas of all 914's, but no place to go to for ALL info on a period specific 914.

We should have a place for such - sorta like a personal Wiki. But...how do we make such a thing work?

Look, we can highlight a dozen or more proven "original" 914's (and we should) so that others can (if they have the bent) bring thier 914's to the same state, or better.

We have a plethora of knowledge from old-timers and studious younger folks, and we all know how to research the things we aren't certain about.

So.....how do we make this work? Remember, 914's were a work-in-progrees through 75. How do we account for the nuances of the mid/quarter year changes (and in some cases - daily changes), while maintaining something useful for the guy who picks up another 914 & wants to make certain it's original quality?

How do we protect putity of knowledge, yet open discussion for questions?

How do we segregate the cars.....I mean, the first year 914 was a moving target for options & parts. As well as the second , third, fourth year?

I guess the primary question (to me) is - how can we re-write Brett Johnson's book to make it correct for all teeners, and to have it here, in digital format with color pics and NO errors.

I'm all for the right format, and will glean posts/pics from nailed topics to make it work. Just not certain how to make it as pure as possible.

Open to any & all ideas/comments/help.
Pat

Perhaps by year , type -1970 914 /6 , 1970 914 / 4 , on down through the years , classifying them by year and the equipment options of that specific year ?? It may work, may not , perhaps a start.

I have two 73's , one with factory sways frt & rr, it has early single loop window doors no reenforcment console car, the other , later window doors , with reenforcments , coin deposit, nothing else special.

Now there is something I do want to mention - the front struts on both of these wedge pin style , have holes from the ball joint compartment all the way through into the insert compartment , now you guys don't have to believe me , just ask Eric Shea , he had a set of 73's on ebay a while back , I emailed him to ask if they had holes all the way trough , and he did comfirm that his did also, no sale as I already had two stes of them. I have two 72's , clamp bolt style , I will in the future check these out just for my own satisfaction to determine if they also have the holes.
Not sure how something of this ilk fits into the originality of 914 , maybe all of them have holes ?? just a little fact or should I say condition of the ones that I own. I would like a place to go to , to check model year specific info from time to time , that lists the options and possibly the rareities of such model year . This info would have to be some kind of documented , verifiyable specs, but who would be the one (s) saying yea and nay ??
My $.02...

Jack / Jaxdream

Pat, you should get in touch with whoever bought Mel's car. Ask him to document everything.

Hi Pat,

Would you like to know what I am thinking??? Ok. I'll tell you.

Why don't you (Pat Garvey) publish a 914 restoration manual?? Start with volume #1, 1970 to 72 then additional issue's for model changes. Call it.

Dr. Pat's 914 Restoration Manual or ???

All of us will help with advise, photo's and this can be your retirement money when you get old. Heck, I'll spend $29.95 for your book. Waiting to hear your answer???? Why give it away free, prostitutes make you pay.

BTW: I'll even send you a photo of my NOS factory Rear fog light.

Tom

I have an idea for a title ....

Porsche 914, A Definitive Reference
Pat Garvey , Author



Jack / Jaxdream

Bliz,

Can we PLEASE leave me alone about the rear fogs? No, I amend that, because it IS part of 914 history.

I would love to publish a proper resto manual for 914's, except for these.......

1. Who the hell am I to declare what 914's are/should be?
2.. How do you "publish" anything?
3. How can it be done with no profit (I'm old & need no more money), unless it goes to promote the breed?
4. What about the later years? So far (though I'm working on that) my knowledge about the late year 914s is limited to heresay.

Look, Brett did a damned good job with his book. Not perfect, but a damned good job.

Seriously, what makes any of you think I wouldn't make some of the same mistakes? What makes you think that I'm capable of such an undertaking? Are you nuts?

Oh, and merry Xmas(Christmas too) to all!
Pat

My stinky 2 cents.

A proper book could be done using 1 car and components from others. Use Steves car as the main subject, take photos of every possible piece of the car. When there is a year differentiation on said part, or finish, add a photo of the correct part from another car, with a subtext stating what the change was, when it was, whether it was an option, aftermarket ( dealer ) or an anomoly that appears to be factory.
I.E. use steve's bumper, but also add a pic and description for a late model bumper, a bumper without tits, a bumper without foglights. Etc. Same goes for interior, gauges, wheels, engines, transmissions,suspension etc.

OR Steves car could be documented start to finish and then in subsequent chapters there could be a compilation under each header with pics. IE:

Engines....A photo and description of each engine, it's changes, it's proper finishes

next chapter = Bumpers.....photo and description of each other bumper changes, years, finish, options etc

next chapter = interiors.....photos of all different interiors and options

and so on and so on. I have quite a collection of the restoration books for all types of cars ( mainly Porsche ) and they ALL are full of mistakes, they jump around way to much to the point they seem dis-organized, and are at times hard to follow. One issue I have had with them is they almost never focus on ONE SPECIFIC car and then list other changes. That to me seems a much better way to do it.

Also I think a MUST HAVE would be a section of nothing but high res pictures of original paint colors. Re-prays are fine as long as they are the correct color and the car represents well, may not be a perfect resto but a slightly modded car would do. After all this chapter is about nothing more than the original colors

I think that Pat is also saying that the work to publish that suggested book is a ton of work, & he wants to enjoy his retirement! ....remember, he's planning that 4-Corners of the USA trip in his now retired from CW 72 914 garage queen, where she'll actually get out & see the open road again!

As to your questions Pat - along the lines of Scotty's chapter suggestions above, if the O&H Forum could be reformatted as forum - nailed sub-forums - subjects - specifics, then it would be easier to use & find specifics.
For example:
Level 1: O&H Forum
Level 2: The Few...
Level 3: 1973 MY 914s
> (maybe next level for 1.7 & 2.0 as separate sections at Level 3.5)
Level 4: Steve's 73 2.0 (individual posts for each car)
............ Xxxx's 73 2.0
............ etc.

This would cover complete cars at each Level 4 (5) post as examples for reference, while the second example below builds off of the other existing nailed topics, as well as added ones along the lines of Scotty's suggested chapters, with further sub-categories to aid in searching for particular items. Examples from the complete cars' posts could then be used in the separate item/feature posts below, in addition to the plethora of additional info. from various sources & cars.

Keep them clean with a way to ask the questions on details & have them found by the original posters of the car or other item, as well as to have the resultant answers & clarifications also find their way to the car post itself for future reference.

Another Example for parts or topics:
Level 1: O&H Forum
Level 2: Wheels & Tires (similar for interiors & other nailed topics)
Level 3: Wheels - or Tires (with similar breakout at 4 & 5)
Level 4: Stock/OE, Factory Options, Dealer Options & Aftermarket
Level 5: Post for each: early Steelies, late steelies, Mahle 4 lugs, Fuchs 2Ls, etc.

I don't know how to do it on this system/website, but someone must. ....more thoughts later, gotta run!

Happy Nude Year to All!

Well pat , here,s what I think is needed. 1. A cronoligical listing of all the 914,s built, by MODEL YEAR., and subcatorigized in the model year , by begginning chassis number to cover WHEN specific changes,improvements etc. took place................2. it may be that a lot of the information already exists when the members list their cars. chassis numbers already exist from the members. Probably more chassis numbers recorded than any where else in the world...........3. for the particular MODEL YEAR members could have input, discussions,and make determinations as to (approximately)( by chassis number) when specific changes were made. Photographic examples would be great. Again submitted by the members.........3. eventually this complation of information could be put on a C.D. and offered FOR SALE..........4. this eliminates the costly "book" creation, development, and printing costs............5. This would be a work in progress for quite a while of course....... In my opinion this would be a very Valuable resource, and not just for people doing restoration work , but useful for anyone purchasing, using, painting, repairing, maintaining, and owning any 914............. murray

Hmmmm, let's see.

We have some great ideas here.

But....a book?

Mabe a possibility, but what about a Wiki?

Yeah, I know, no control over the content (or am I missing something?). So, we post a bunch of really perfect pic's of things that count, for the various models. Then, someone comes along & makes alterations because thier 914 doesn't fit the spec. Think I just answered by question - Wiki out! Someone with "master" control (not necessarilly master knowledge) has to be in charge.

OK, so let's, as a group, become the editors. The emphasis needs to be on originality. Hang concours - we need to see parts! Hardcores can make the parts "conc".

Let's make this a mass project. Why - because we have "experts" on just about every little piece. And this is important for a classic car. And....we have them all right here, don't we?

So, why don't we try to start from the very beginning, and move from there?
I'd propose that we (I) open a nailed subforum for this purpose, and accumulate as much data for the early(69-70) 914's as possible. Open it up to original, or properly restored 914/6 & 914/4 models only - for the basics. Then, let's make a further adventure out of it & incorporate the little parts - the ones that are usually hidden & ask the owners to display them.

Examples: fog light grill/non-fog light grill screws & speed nuts, finish on lugs for alloys vs steel wheels, trim differences, etc.

We "may" reach the publishing stage with this, and it will be a group effort. No proceeds to be accepted personally. All pics would be waived as a group effort. The title to be legally transferred to 914World. Any/all may opt out of the project, even if pics are submitted. Any (yeah, right!) profits from publishing such a tome would revert to the fuirtherence of 914's, through the World, at thier discretion.

Wadda Ya think?
Pat

The Parts Vault was my original attempt at a place to house detailed information about each and every part on a 914, including the basic construction material, original finish, common failures & replacements, as well as more in depth replacement options, reproduction parts/history, etc.

Unfortunately, the Parts Vault is not so effective because it's only set up to be accessed by part number. So you can't 'drill down' by selecting Suspension->Front->Spindle, etc.

A book is a great idea, but would take a few years to build (IMHO) before publication, and none of the information would be available before publication.

I think the wiki is a great way to go. It allows for multiple authors as well as allowing for the previously mentioned 'drill down', as well as cross linking articles, so the rubber grommets that protect the fuel lines in the engine bay as well as the brake lines from the reservoir to the master cylinder could be listed in both Brakes and Fuel without actually replicating the information.

Once one year is done in wiki, take Steve's 73 for example, I guess you can just use his as a templete and just substitute pictures & certian text for a different year/car?

I know it's pretty dumb to respond to my own post, but within secondes of posting the above I realized that there woulf be no way to protect the posts from profiteers. So, please, do not reply with posts.

So, I need some "legal" help here.

How can we make this work, without someone stealing the content? How can we secure the text? The pics?

C'mon, there must be some legals out there to help guide this.

I'm willing to do the legwork, but I don't want my work stolen for profit.
Pat

Maybe once you get the legal aspect nailed down Pat, select a few trust worthy people to help you, and do it off line so no images, format, etc. can't be pirated. Set up another site for just you and your assistant admins to complete the work without anyone else knowing along with some kind of non disclosure agreement for each party to sign. When it's ready, maybe have a paying membership for the new web site with the proceeds going to the world club with everything on it copy writed? Just tossing some ideas at yah. Maybe someone in the publication industry can get you pointed in the right direction.

Pat, Tod & All,

While I'm not a lawyer, I have done some things with publication copyright issues for some possible future publications & past business related stuff, as well as having a friend who is a published writer who's done 100's of books (not this subject area, nor a legal/technical guy though).

As I understand it, once something is in the "public domain" as non-proprietary work, another person 3rd party cannot come along & copyright it - at least not without facing a challenge from the original maker (the owner, writer, photographer, software developer, designer, architect, etc.).

Once you get to the hard copy book publication stage, it's a matter of getting permissions for each & every item - whether or not copyrighted, due to the possibility below. ...it's a ton of logistical work to say the least, in addition to actually doing the writing, pix, charts, etc. & proofing/editing them all into a book &/or CD/digi-book!

So if I or Pat or Steve post their pix here as non-copyrighted products, they're thereafter in the public domain, but that person could go back later & apply for copyright protection, & then everything so copyrighted & posted here would be protected....

...& then everybody would have to abide by the limitations in terms of not printing, reposting, copying etc. of those images &/or writings - which carried a $50k PER INFRINGEMENT copyright penalty (i.e.: per copy, print, re-use, etc.) which adds up fast!

...so for example, I could be in violation by downloading the pic alone, let alone making a print-out to give to my mechanic or body shop, or put in my 914 records binder, or to display with the car at the next PCA CdE show - I think that's about $200k in potential penalties so far for 1 pic!!!!

Do we REALLY want to create such hurdles at 914world to assisting owners in restoring & maintaining their 914s!!??

Look everybody, as a relative newbie to this 914world site since early 2009, I think you long time members are missing what a really GREAT resource is already here!

What Pat & most others are really talking about, is how to best refine this O&H Forum section to make it more helpful & more easy to use! 914world is a free & open-source forum for 914 enthusiasts of all stripes, & IMHO it needs to stay that way!

It could charge a modest annual membership fee for any/all access if $$$'s is a problem. Heck, I'd pay $20+/- a year, but would prefer to see it remain free to all to use as it is now.

Whether Pat, or Steve & any others want to do their own 914 Resto book to publish & sell (whether paper &/or digital format), is up to those folks to decide if they want to undertake that huge task, & how they want to use the proceeds. That IMHO is a second & separate subject, which may or may not make use of the info posted here (e.g.: the writer/editor may choose to shoot specific pix anew for a book/CD).


As to some suggestions for refining this forum from all to date:

1. McMark is right, the parts bin needs to be more easily searchable, & cross-linking that with the other cars & "issue areas" sub-forums (wheels & tires, interiors, etc.) would be a great step too.

I'd also suggest that it be required to also post the PET reference number/page/category for the parts too, so that we can see WTF we're trying to order somewhere & what to buy here at 914world, at evil-bay, Samba, etc.

In other words, I pretty much agree with McMark's suggestions, as well as Murray's in terms of organizing & cross-linking parts for searchablity, but the CD idea is still a separate subject here as noted!


2. Tod's suggestion of using Steve's vunder-914 as a "model" is a good one, but Pat could still set up the tiered sub-forum which I & others suggested, with reserved posts for Dave's 76 & other OE 914's out there which he wants to collect pix & info on - without waiting a long period to do so on theirs as well.


3. Tod, with all due respect, IMHO your suggestion to do extensive non-disclosures, off-line preparation which has limited access, etc. runs against the grain of the open-source & free access premise of 914world. However, it's a good suggestion for Pat or anyone wanting to pursue the 2nd subject of publication &/or a "pay for access" website.


4. As to Pat's concern about someone stealing his work for profit (I don't think he's worried about folks using it for their own use), it would have some protection as noted above, but this format is basically a public domain situation. If you found a book later publishing your hard work here for profit, go hire a copyright attorney on contingency to challenge their right to copyright your work first "open source published" here & donate any net proceeds after the legal-beagles take their cut (from what I've heard, those cases usually settle out-of-court for an agreed royalty & catch-up payment on prior sales).

From what I've heard from a writer buddy, most reputable publishing companies check for full releases on everything in a book (pix, diagrams, etc.), to CYA - since they usually have deeper pockets than most of their authors, so they'll end up being the lawyers' primary target in any copyright infringement lawsuit.


5. Pat, Tod, Murry/ME733, McMark, myself & others have made a number of suggestions on how to make this O&H forum more usable as a reference tool. Some will work together, while others may conflict - but there's probably a way to meld the ideas into a workable IT solution (which is NOT my forte, nor probably that of most posting their ideas here).

What we lack is the "webmaster" knowledge of how to set it up here, since this is basically a data base management issue, overlain onto this blog/post format (I think!!?? ).

Any IT or webmaster guru's out there who can help Pat & everyone??

Tom the only reason I suggested that, was cause of Pat's concern of all the hard work that could go into this, could be taken by another party for profit. Be nice if the world wasn't like that, but unfortunetly it is. I'm sure you'll find some happy medium where it can be of benifit to all in the club. If you all need any help with photo color correction, headers, etc., be happy to help.

Understood Tod, & a great suggestion for the writing/compiling of a "for sale" book/CD/web product as my suggested secondary topic here.

Just that this is an open to all forum which we all contribute to grais for everyone's benefit, as well as using for ourselves. IMHO best to keep it that way - open & free!

I'm sure Pat will take you up on the offer with graphics, plus he's in Philly & you're in NJ? - so you're geographically close to team up on stuff as needed!

OK, so we have a group us whackos who want to produce the "Ultimate Originality/Restoration to Factory Specs" book, or whatever it will be.

I think.

So, let's get some things we can all agree on straight:
1. It will be a compendeum of knowledge from those with experience.
2. A selected (by the members) group of "experts" will be the co-authors/co-editors of said tome.
3. No personal wealth (directly) is to be made from this adventure.
4. All net profits are to be the property of the 914World, for the purpose of keeping the 914 spirit alive.
5. Anyone contributing info/data/pics for this purpose must waive thier rights to profit. This is a MUST!
6. All info/data must be verifiable, or, at least, subject to scrutiny by the editorial staff.

I'm open for other restrictions, since I'm a Bozo, but this should be a start.

Now, since I/we are anticipating this thing to come to fruition, I'd like to get the feelings of Andy, et all (founders).

Then, I'd like to get recommendations from the masses as to who should be a part of this undertaking. This needs to be, in my opinion, a work from talents that none of us have individually, yet individually have expertise with. Ex: I know 72 914's to a fault, but am not an expert on 73's. Get it? So we're going to need a cadre of "experts" to make this work.

Also, I'd like to get everyone's feelings on who the primary editor should be (and it does NOT have to be me - please!), because someone has to be the bad guy!

And, in finale, I'd like to hear any/all comments to this text. Look, I've just spent a week with in-laws & out-laws - anything you contribute will be like candy!
Pat

Hey Pat, if you guys want to take on that pile of work to do a book, more power to you! I'll be near the front of the line as I can get to buy one in a couple of years, when it's ready.

In the meantime though, I need to get my 73 2L repaired, restored & running again, so I'll need the benefit of the 914world resources here, as I'm sure will many others.

So I hope that the book effort will not negate further new information being put here, nor change 914world into just another commercial venture. It would be a shame to lose the camaraderie & sense of community here, by pulling the best info off of the site awaiting some TBD future publication date.

IMHO - the forums here also need attention for better cross-referencing, searching & referencing of info already here - let alone added original cars, etc. - in order to make it more manageable & usable. McMark, Murry, Tod, myself & others have made some valid suggestions to do that here (which are also applicable to how you do the book too). I'd hate to see the forums suffer not getting those refinements due to diverted interest.

I hope I'm not the lone voice in all of 914world, in wanting to maintain it's open access to info, as well as see it grow & improve over time!

I'm not saying don't do the book, but don't forget the forum either! However, what I'm hearing is making me concerned that the attantion will be completely diverted away from the O&H forums, by the very "experts" like yourself, Steve, Dave, etc. upon whom we all depend for that expertise here.

And a brain spurt on the book idea I just had - after messing with the AA pdf 914 parts catalog:

- maybe you could save yourself some grief, expand the body of examples without having a humongous tome, & give it future expandability - by hot linking the CD version (if one is done) into the appropriate subject sub-form here on 914world.

That way the reader could click & go here for further & perhaps updated info on a particular subject. You could probably get an idea from George as to how they set up their catalog link to their AA online parts search & order system.

...just another idea for the book/CD option. ...and geesh! first I complain & worry about the book/CD taking away from the forums, then I go & give you another idea for the book!....sometimes I kill myself - both literally & figuratively!

Look, believe me, the last thing I wish to do is write a book. But....and think about this, how much longer can this forum survive without cash influx? We've been riding Andys gravy train for years! Who do you think is footing the bill for this forum? Andy, and his servers.

My purpose is to supplant the costs that Andy has. Yeah, they're minimal (I guess?), but without his servers we'd all be paying dues. Just trying to help keep on keepin on!

If the masses don't like it, I'll kill it right now!

I'm willing to make the effort, but not if it isn't positive. Quite frankly, I really don't need the hassle, but I'd try to do it if you guys want it.

So, with that in mind, I'll post a poll (and I really hate them).
Pat

Pat, I just posted to poll so won't repeat, other than I vote for both!

I had no idea it was Andy's charity on this website to make it go!

Big Kudos to you Andy!!

So, are there voluntary dues here, or something we can do to help support this 914world continuing in the interim, over the 1-2+ years it will take to get book sales?

No Track fees!