Hi everyone, ive been chasing my tail with this project for some time now. My last post, i had gotten my 1.7 running, but when i would take off, it had now power and would die. I thought that i might be putting it into 3rd instead of first, but that turned out to not be the case. I bought this engine used, and it had webber 34ict carbs on it. I ran a compression test last night and it read #1=105 #2=95 #3=110 #4=110. I have been able to get the car out on flat ground and get it to go, but if i hit any kind of hill it just fall right on its face. When the car is out of gear it idles nice and revs up pretty well, but it has nothing under load. Does anyone have any suggestions. I checked the jetting and it is what the carbs would have came with stock.
I do have all of my original fuel injection which works to the best of my knowlege. Maybe i should just put that on this 1.7?
Help!!

quick guess dwell timing stuck brakes

Could be a fuel issue. Mine would stumble at around 3000 rpm. I finally found out my tank had rust in it and the fuel sock was plugged. maybe check your tank with a flashlight and see what it looks like.

I set the dwell with a dwell meter, so that seems to be fine. The car does roll, so i dont think the brakes are stuck. The car will go in reverse up the hill in front of my house, but not in 1st. The timing has been an issue. Im not sure the marks are correct on the fan. I have set the timing where i believe it is correct, but im not positive. Since i have been unsure of the timing, i have tried it in almost every possible position with no luck. It seems like a carb issue, but im still not sure.

I cleaned my tank and replaced all the fuel lines already. The tank was really nasty though from old gas crusting up in it. It is good now though. The engine revs up great until it is under a load.

Check to make sure your firing order is correct, I had that problem on a v8 once...Also check all your vacuum lines, does the car pop at all?

try a different coil. a weak coil could cause this, also ohm out the spark plug and coil wires. if one is bad i will show up as much higher resistance than the others.

Sounds like timing could be an issue.

Get Cyl 1 to Top Dead Center. You might need a friend to help. Using a straw (NOT a chopshick... ) down the #1 spark plug hole, have a friend rotate the engine by hand (5th gear, lift one tire off the ground and turn it, not by turning the fan).

You will use the straw to feel the piston move up the bore until it pauses at the top before going back down. The piston goes to this position 2X per firing cycle, but only one is TDC. You know you are at TDC when you can see both valves are closed, can (probably) see the arm of your dizzy point at the no1 cylinder, and (probably) have a timing mark in the top inspection notch on the case.

Once you know that you have TDC, you can tell if your timing mark is correct. It should be stamped into the fan, even if it is not painted. You usually have to see it with a mirror. Some fans may not have TDC stamped, but the two I have dealt with did.

Once you have found that mark, you can set timing. if your timing is wrong, your engine will run like a dog - and maybe overheat to the point of destruction. take the time to find out how your motor is timed and get it right.

Zach

once i have that tdc mark, what do i set the timing to. I dont know if i trust the red and white marks i have. I have a fancy timing light that i can set the advance on. Im positive i have other issues than timing, but i definatly need to get it set so i can move on to the next issue.

I have checked the firing order many times. It runs smothe when not under a load. I dont have any vacuum lines, and ive sealed everything else up, so i dont think i have a vacuum leak.

I would do as Zach suggested and set your engine to TDC for #1 and then see if either of your marks on the fan are visible. Hopefully one is centered in the notch. If nothing is there, make one.

From here, I believe the timing for a stock 1.7 is 27 degrees BTDC at 3500 rpms. Disconnect any vacuum advance/retard lines to the dizzy. Make sure you plug the lines. Set the gun to 27 BTDC and have someone rev the engine to 3500 rpms and slowly rotate the dizzy until you get that mark centered in the notch. Tighten the dizzy and re-check.

Ok, i will go through this again tonight. Im still having a hard time believing it is a timing issue though. I did have the timing where it looked to be correct, but could have been off by a few degrees. If the timing was off just a few degrees, would it make this big of a difference in power?

Have you pulled a plug? Are they covered in black carbon?

First things I would check is coil and/or fuelpump.

The one question that was never asked yet and i missed it the first read. If you have no vacuum lines, what distributor is in the car? Sounds like it would be a vac advance/retard problem or a 009 without enough advance. If the vac lines to the stock dizzy are wrong, you very well could get a retarded timing under load. Just my .02.

I dont have a vacuum advance. I believe my distributor is a 009. I do have a vac advance dizzy i could put in. I have read on here to not use the vacuum advance for a carb setup.
I will try changing the coil to see if that does anything also. The fuel pump is pumping fuel. Im not positive that my floats are set correctly though, what would that do if the floats were to low?
I pulled the plugs, 1,2,3 were dark with carbon, 4 was brown.

009 is not the one to use, especially if your setting stock timing. Not enough advance on it to work right from what everyone says here. Advance the dizzy about 8 deg from where you are and see if it pulls better-idle will be high. If it works, then i'd put a stock one back in.

I've had this condition when there was WAY too much fuel... It was the float. It ran fine in neutral but no power to push the car. However, it was obvious that it was rich 'cause it was smoking. The plugs fouled really fast too so you might want to change them. If, by chance, you are experiencing the same thing, don't run your car anymore than you have to until you get it leaned out. Cylinder wash is an ugly thing.

Can you even get too much fuel on 34ICT's?

Fine point. But possibly if the floats are way off or the inlet valve is stuck open??? Wonder if they're dripping?

What do you mean by dripping? My car isnt smoking, and it doesnt seem to be fouling the plugs. They are dark with carbon, but not wet. I was thinking that maybe the floats were set to low and not letting enough fuel in. I went through the carbs completly, and the floats are not sticking. The car smells a little rich when it runs, but not much smoke coming out.

How do i tell the difference between all the distributors? All i know is the one i have in right now doesnt have a vacuum advance and the one on my old fuel injected motor has a vacuum advance and trigger points inside. Should i use the vacuum advance distributor?

It only takes 10 minutes to try it. What have you got to loose. I personally would turn the 009 counter clockwise ( advance) about 8 deg and do a test run. Wouldn't leave it like that for DD though. (well, I might, but i don't care about my engine).

I actually have tried driving my car with the dist in almost every possible position. I initially tried it where i thought it was supposed to be, then started advancing it. It did get a little more power with some extra advance, but not much. I turned the distributor until it wouldnt turn any more, and nothing helped.

If you tried advancing it, and the advance in the dizzy is working, and your plugs are black, and "not muchsmoke" and your sure the wires/cap/rotor is good and valves adjusted, something is wrong in the carbs. Leaking main jet, wrong jets, forgot a o-ring in the carbs, etc.

Plugs should not be carbon black ever.

Look inside the barrel of the carb and see if you see gas dripping out of a jet while the car is running.

Everything does keep leading me back to the carbs. When i look down the barrels i dont see anything leaking out or dripping. I will double check this again in a bit, but im not sure what to do if it is the carbs. I disasembled the carbs, ran them throug an ultrasonic cleaner, blew everything out, maybe i missed something. I dont know how to troubleshoot carbs.

maybe I missed a post,.. but did you try changing the coil for another one?

It could be off a tooth. This part bothers me... You really need to KNOW the timing is right. Turning it every which way to try it, and having it not help isn't the right approach. Running this thing with the timing way off isn't good for it. Since the timing is in question, I wouldn't go too far down any other rabbit trails until I knew it was right.

How does the spark look? Weak spark will cause your symptoms. A bad braided ground wire between the plates in the dizzy can cause that (as well as the coil as others have been saying). It only takes a second to check! Pull a spark plug, connect it, hold the threads to metal on the engine, and have someone crank it. Is the spark weak and yellow, or a nice fat blue white?

Last night i went home and tried some more things. I jacked the car up and mad certain all the wheels were turning free, and they are. I then put the engine to tdc. I watched the rotor and had #1 spark plug out. With a flashlight i could see when the piston came to the top. I marked tdc on the fan. I then set my timing light to 27 btdc reved to 3500 and brought that mark into the notch. The car ran really bad with it timed at this point. It doesnt seem like it is the right mark to time to with my gun set at 27btdc. My distributor is definatly giving advance.
I watched inside the carbs and noticed that for a minute after startup, there was gas dripping out of the accelerator jet thing. It did stop after a minute though. When reving the engine up and watching the fuel spray down the carbs, i noticed that the carb on the passenger side was definatly spraying more fuel.
I keep thinking something is wrong with these carbs, so i took them off and disasembled them again. When i initially got them, the jets were covered with white powdery junk. I ultrasonic cleaned everything, but it didnt remove that white crap that well. Now im wondering if there is stuff jamed in some of the passages.
I cleaned a little bit of junk out of one of the jets, put the carbs back together, reinstalled them, synced them, and the car is running worse now.
WTF
It was late by this time and i didnt have enough time to swap the coil or look at the color of the spark.
Im thinking my old fuel injection needs to be put back on. Im getting tired of screwing with these carbs.

So, am i still doing my timing wrong. There is a red and white mark on my fan.

You should get a small vial, cut it and put it on metal wire. Then lower it in the carb venturi (when the carbs are installed and have gas in them) under where the accellerator pump puts fuel in the carb. Push down the throttle and catch all the gas in the vial. Check all four and compare. Then is a certain amount of fuel your suppose to get, something like 75ml per jet squirt.

If you have an accel pump problem your car will want to die out when you hit the gas to hard, but if you slowly open the throttle while driving it should pick-up (but slowly).

Should the accelerator pump be squirting a stream or a mist. It seems like it is squirting alot of fuel in a strait stream. I would think it would need to be atomized better. ???

It should be a stream, but there should be a good solid stream for each venturi.

You put it at tdc, but was it on the compression stroke? Where was the rotor pointing? Have you checked the back of the fan for marks? There were no factory marks or notches on the forward edge of the fan. You have to use a mirror(or be able to contort your head) to see the rear of the fan for the tdc notch if it is even there. Some replacememt fans were not ever marked.

Btw, I'm an FI die hard, so reinstalling the FI is my advice.

Are you SURE you set TDC right? Did you check to make sure both valves were fully closed?

Are you using a mirror in the inspection hole? You can't see the factory timing marks or the timing notch w/o a mirror. This confused the hell out of me the first time I set my timing until some one pointed out that I was timing to the wrong point.

Zach

I had the piston at the top and the rotor pointing at cylinder 1, so that should be tdc. I will get a mirror and see if there is a mark on the back of the fan. When i had the engine out of the car and initially adjusted the valves, i made a mark where i thought tdc was. The mark i made last night was almost the same. I will try the mirror and see if there is anything there.
My carbs are both squirting a good solid stream down into the venturi, so i dont think there is a problem with the accelerator pump.
Idle circuit seems to work good, accelerator pump works good. How do i check everything else.
Im leaning toward putting the FI back on if this problem doesnt get worked out really soon.
This is not the motor i originally had the FI on. Where do i mount the head temp sensor. On the old motor, someone took out one of the screws holding the sheet metal on right next to the intake, and the drilled and tapped that hole biger to put the head temp sensor there. Im not sure if that is a good place though.

take 5 minutes and try a different coil!!!!!!!!!!

I hear ya Troy. Even better, because there are other variables, take ONE minute and check the SPARK color.

Pull a plug wire off, pull the insulator back to expose metal at the end, have someone crank the engine if you don't have a remote starter switch, and hold the end of the wire towards the engine block metal. When you get within a 1/4 inch, do you get a bright blue spark arcing that scares the crap outta you? If so, your spark is good. If not... can you get it real close and by the time it arcs it is a weak yellow spark?

I like narrowing stuff down quick. It literally takes seconds to do a test that you need to know the answer to: How weak/strong is the spark? Divide and conquer.

If the spark is weak we can nail this fast. If the spark is strong then we can go back down the road of timing and carbs.

It's a 1.7 914. What do you expect? .... hahaha.... Sorry I couldn't help myself. Fellow 1.7 owner/racer here. Long live the king of the underdogs.
Mark D.

It sounds oddly similar to something I went through.

Take a moment and verify that the plug wires coing off the distributor
go to cylinders 1-4-3-2 clockwise looking from above at the cap.

Please check spark quality and help me stop doing continuous backflips here. I don't want to die this way.

OK, I'll add my $.02: I think it's water or gunk in the carbs. If you had all that junk in your gas tank, maybe some of it got into the carbs. I would pull the carbs and take a look inside. Over the years (years and years) I have found that if water gets into the carbs it will let the engine idle because the gas is setting on top of the water. When you start to need some power it will start to draw up the water from the bottom of the fuel bowl and then no power. FWIW

So i finally got around to doing all the work you guys suggested, and still no good results. I do think that I have pinpointed the problem though. To recap what i did; I disasimbled examined and rebuilt my distributor, replaced my coil, replaced plugs and plug wires, checked valve clearance, cleaned carbs up, found the factory timing mark and set the timing to that mark. I think that is it. Well, when i had all the plugs out, i cranked the engine and verified that i have a good solid spark on all the plugs. I did a compression test and all cylinders came up to 100 or more, but it did take 4 or so cranks to get up there. When i put everything back together and got it timed, it still is running the same as before i did all this stuff. The engine sounds fairly smothe, but i started pulling plug wires while it is running and i can tell that it is barely running on cylinders 1 and 3. If i pull both 1 and 3 wires off, it runs the same, but if i take either 2 or 4 off, the engine barely runs.
So i pinpointed that 1 and 3 have some sort of problem. I turned the engine over with the valve covers off and i couldnt' see any difference in the lift from 1,3 versus 2,4 valves. I dont know what a flat cam would look like, but it seems as though im getting adequate lift. Anyone have any ideas now?

Hmm... Do Djet FI trigger points run in those pairs?

edit: Oops, no more FI

I believe that djet trigger points do run in those pairs, but that isnt the issue. Im running carbs with a distributor that has no trigger points. thanks though.

let me add $.02 , I have found that with the one barrel carbs you need an "equealizer" hose between the manifolds. I have found this at idle but not at a partial throttle. Sometimes without this equealizer the engine will only idle on two cylinders. VW knew this ...look at a two carb setup on a bus it has a connection on the manifolds.

I believe that my engine is running on only 2 cylinders no matter what rpm im at. This is why when i try to drive it, it has no power. I think im going to drop this engine back out of the car and try to get this 2.0 that i have sorted out.

.........a previous posting -BORDERLINE-..and now UNDERTHETIRE.. suggested you have WATER-in the fuel tank, and WATER in the carburators...He gave you an example of those problems.....I have solved mysterious power loss problems on customer cars (with weber carbs) because the fuel system and carburators were contaminated with WATER. Because of the way weber carbs are made there is NO way to remove WATER in the float boals, without removing them and dumping out the WATER.(you should then spray them,while upside down ,with CARBURATOR CLEANER......Then at the very least, while the carbs are off, drain the gas tank-with proper gas cans to catch the fuel....You have a water problem...The plugs are firing...CONFERM...Ignition timing also. The 009 distributor is a little hard to time correctly, and really does not have enough of an advance range...Murray.

While the car is off, unplug one spark plug at the cap and leave it off. Fire up the car and see how it runs. Plug that wire back in and try with each of the others. Compare the sound...