Well, after 3 trips back to the tire shop I have them balanced. You'll think this is nuts but try it. First let's give credit where it is due. I clicked on the link posted on aircooledtechguys signature and found this article on balancing tires with air ball bb's. $9 at Wally's and you have enough for 20 tires. It was listed under under "cheap tools" on his website. Basically you put 1.5 oz's in each tire and thats it. So the 3rd trip I took 4 bags weighed out at 1.5 ounces each with these plastic 6.5mm bb's and had the "tire dude" break the beads and insert the bb's. I got some funny looks but it seems to have worked. PS. These can't be used if you have a tire sealer additive in your tires, ever! He shows white balls in his article but I much preferred the competition red bb's.
http://aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/balancing_beads/

I've not heard of that until now. In the past I have had the tires balanced on the car. Only problem is when you remove the tire you loose the exact balance.

I learned something new today! I am going to try some the next go round.

I am intentending to use this method to balance the big mud tires on my Jeep.

One thing to keep in mind is that steel BBs will rust, and eventually stop working as well. There are companies that make ceramic bbs for exactly this purpose.

Zach

..........The professionals that depend on excellant tire balance , long tire life, (that is to say) a cool tire carcass and tread......are TRUCKERS....any decent truck tire repair shop will have...a silicone sealant and balance liquid...installed it does all the things the "BALLS do. plus keeps the tires cooler, and prevents leakage...install on existing mounted tires thru removed "tire valve"....seals race tires nicely...product can be found on some race car parts sites........M.M.

This is alll very interesting....

Guy's there is a this this stuff called balancing powder. Check your local large truck tire dealer or 4x4 shop that does tires.

April 1st is just about two weeks away.

Dear Abby,

When my sister got married, I put marbles in her hubcaps and welded tincans on a chain around the bumper so she could leave the wedding in style.

The marbles made a neat whizzing sound as she sped up and slowed down, and rattled around as she stopped. The tin cans made lots of noise being drug behind the car.

Would the marbles in the hubcaps balance her wheels???

Only when going straight, on turns all hell breaks loose!

The BBs trick does work. Tube tire guys have been using it for years, and it is just about the only way to balance some tires (like mudders - which will throw weights off in a heart beat, and the stuck mud will kill balance anyway).

http://www.innovativebalancing.com/HowItWorks.htm

Follow the link for a primer on how it works.
the ceramic beads are made to be installed through the inflation valve (with the valve core removed).

For my 38 inch TSL mud tires, I'd use 10oz of beads per tire to balance them.

Zach

I'm kinda torn on that one.

The tire creates a standing wave shape from the balance of forces, and every time you hit a pavement divider at speed, the tire changes shape and the bb's are going to move around from the jolt. And as in any system, it will take time to re-stabilize.

Thump, thump, thump.....

How do the bb's stabilize when being constantly thumped by the pavement dividers when driving on a highway?

I think it works like a big tilt-a-wheel. As the tire speeds up, it is creating a lot of centripetal force on the beads. The vibrations from hitting a bump may shake the beads loose, but they would be back in place within a second or two.

When the tire is rolling slow enough that the beads are not working, you are not going to be experiencing balance related issues anyway.

Though the final word is that my truck is not on the road yet, so I can't test them. I do know that the truck shop that mounted my tires said that they could not balance them (weird sized wheel) and suggested these beads be used.

Zach

I can testify to the noise from the the marbles in the hubcaps.

I think I'm going to defer to my family Missouri roots on this one.

Show me.

Thanks for the plug and the confirmation of my sanity

I've been doing this on all my cars for the past few years now. Nothing but smooth rolling here. I also do this on cars that I restore because there's nothing worse than a beautifully restored set of wheels with lead weights stuck to the side. . .

My 914 has them and I've taken it north of 100mph on dozens of occasions and done some fairly aggressive driving. Nothing but smooth road and no lead weights to fling off in a corner or over a bump.

Do the tires become unbalanced when you corner fast?

Do the free rolling balls roll up the side of the tire?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

I want a camera in the tire.....

You do this in a car you take over 100mph

If this were the ticket I would be sure racers would be doing this. They aren't and I am sure there is a reason behind that. Under 60 I am sure it is a neat trick but over that I would sure not like to see something bad happen because of this.

No.



I would highly doubt it. Because the centrifugal force going round and round is WAY greater than any lateral force in a corner.



THAT would be a neat trick my friend!!

Do a force vector diagram on the balls when cornering.

I bet they move sideways.

Centripetal force produces an effect similar to gravity. In the old science fiction movies with the rotating wheel space stations to simulate gravity, the astronauts can walk around without being rooted to one spot. And if the astronaut is pushed sideways towards the sidewall, he moves in the direction imposed by the push.

Same with the balls in the tires. A side centripetal force can move them sideways while a rotational centripetal force holds them against the inside of the tire.

Instant dynamic imbalance....

Or maybe not ...

Wouldn't a deforming tire (due to side-loads) negate any static (good old weights) balancing anyways?


As soon as the sidewall starts to flex, any balancing done with conventional weights becomes completely useless ...
Andy

Dynamic imbalance is induced by balls moving to one side of the inside of the tire.

The flex is a separate and distinct effect that can be added on top of the ball movement.

My point was, how do you keep a tire balanced with static weights under sideload? Please explain.

Andy

You don't. The tires are designed to deflect and the balance changes.

In engineering terms, if the side deflection is small, the dynamic balance changes are minimal. If the side deflection is great, the dynamic balance is affected a like amount. For both cases, the static balance changes are very little compared to the dynamic changes.

My point is: If the tire is filled with free moving balls, any side loading force moves the balls against one of the inner side walls and creates a dynamic imbalance. Because the balls are free to roll, a small side load can cause a large dynamic balance change.

Think everybody in a plane running to one side.....

Still in balance or will the plane dip to one side?

I thought planes "banked" to make a turn?


It's not like all the beads are running to one side while you're going straight ...
Andy

It appears there has been quite alot of intelligent thought re: this. And those opposed could be right. The powder is another trick that has been used for years. The only drawback with powder is that it forms clots when exposed to moisture and requires an occasional cleaning. The bb's I previously referred to are ceramic not metal. They are too large (6mm) to fit thru the valve stem. They are not out of round as evidenced when boucing on a flat surface. They bounce at least as well as a "superball". They are very, very light weight and not much bigger than a popcorn fart. FYI, 1.5 oz's = appx 1/3 cup. My guess is that bigger tires might require a larger quantity. Can I hear them? Only if I'm pushing the car. Not when it is running. And I'll bet the balls do move sideways in a turn. You'd just better hope the force isn't enough to place them on or near the horizontal plane. I did some hard turns (i.e. mild skids at <100mph & > 60mph) and my balls shifted a bit. I'm not sure what happened to the balls in the tires but the tires felt great in the corners. O Ye of little faith. If anyone here wants to try this I'll send'em some to try. I have plenty left over. The proof is in the pudding!

Andy, Pilots do a weights and balance on the aircraft and place the cargo to balance the plane. Moving all the passengers to one side will upset the balance of the plane and steer it....

76-914, I still think the balls are going to go wherever they want because they are free to roll. I think they will move to the sidewall during a turn, and that the pavement dividers are going to excite the free rolling devils so they run amuck.

Take the balls, put them in a cookie pan and tip the pan so they roll. Blow on the balls to simulate side loads from cornering, and they will move to the side wall of the pan while simultaneously rolling downhill.

Tap on the bottom of the pan as they roll downhill to simulate the impoact from the curb dividers. (thump, thump, thump) Bet that some bounce up off the pan, they don't roll as smooth or in the same pattern as unexcited, and that means your wheel balance changes for every curb divider hit at speed.

Done enough vibrational testing and excitation to really doubt this, but I've been surprised before. It meets one of the classical rules for a science puzzle- a sealed box, and you can't view inside- aka Schroedingers cat. Is the cat dead or alive?

Still want the camera shots.

I would think nascar wouldn't use the balls because they might get on the track and really screw things up. Maybe the powder though.

I have one question, would all the little balls cause wear inside the tire you wouldn't be able to inspect? You kinda are turning the tire in to a mobile tumbler.

And how does that related to them little balls?

You're still comparing airplanes to ceramic balls.

Every time you mentioned your plane it was always just moving passengers around in the plane.
To even come close to be comparable, you would have to let the passengers be moved by the planes cornering forces, not them running around on their own.
Your comparison just doesn't hold up at all ...

The whole point of the balls IS the fact that they move around. If they were static, they would be just like any other wheel weight.
You're still trying to compare them to static scenarios, which just doesn't work.

But hey, you are the "engineer", so what do i know ...
Andy

PS: And while we're at it, you got the Schrödingers cat analogy wrong too. Of course you can open the box. In fact, the whole point of his experiment was to open the box. In more scientific terms, a observer (any observer!) changes the outcome of the experiment because observing always involves interaction with the observed ...

From the "How it works page"

Why don't you have tire charts for cars, SUV's or minivans?

We don't market to cars, SUV's or minivans due to the overall style of those tires, which are low and wide. This style of tire commonly exhibits varying degrees of lateral imbalance due primarily to the width. This type of inbalance can only be corrected with carefully placed wheel weights. So that means that while Dyna Beads should not be used as the sole balancing method for these tire types, they can be used as a supplemental method.
Using a combination of weights and Dyna Beads results in higher tire mileage and a reduction, or elimination, of future rebalancing requiements. For the proper amount, click here.

Hey Kwales; I finally get to talk to the other KG owner here. I know your sharp guy and probably right but I have a question. Your analogy was: "Tap on the bottom of the pan as they roll downhill to simulate the impoact from the curb dividers. (thump, thump, thump) Bet that some bounce up off the pan, they don't roll as smooth or in the same pattern as unexcited, and that means your wheel balance changes for every curb divider hit at speed." But how are the gravitational forces equal here. Clearly, 1G acting upon the BB's for the pan demo, right? But in reality this load increases with rotational spin, right? I'm guessing here, but wouldn't the G force acting upon the BB's outwardly or towards the tread always (above 20mph, that is) be >1G ? Maybe 5,6,or 7 G's depending upon rate of speed? Has anyone got a G Meter or know what kind of G's were pulling in the turns. If it exceeds 1G wouldn't the car begin an immediate slid? Wouldn't this outward force have a greater influence on the BB's than the weaker lateral force, thus keeping the BB's in place? I don't know, I'm just a plumber. You won't hurt my feelings by splaining it to me.

I talked to a guy who runs a commercial (truck) tire operation and he said while it works in heavy trucks who do long haul, for day to day, stop and go, it doesn't make sense. He said 70% of autos who try this find it doesn't work out..

Well lucky for me that's what I did. Tire shop asked if they should leave the weights on and I said yes. I figured these beads were supplemental and if not I could remove the weights, myself. It's good to hear that no wear or damage results from this.

Andy,

You are not quite getting my point, and being a geek engineer, I usually explain with a lot of pictures and arrows

The passengers are the balls. Let's take your plane analogy, its better.

If the plane swerves sharply, the passengers are thrown to the sidewall of the plane- just like the little balls in the tire.

My point that seems to be elusive is: when the passengers or the balls are plastered against the sidewall, the former balance (if it existed) is changed to an imbalance because the balls have moved to the sidewall. Just like moving the lead weights on the wheel while it is moving.

Nah, I didn't get Schroedingers wrong. One of the discussion points is you don't know what is going on in the box until you open it. You can theorize, but until you open the box, you just don't know. Kinda like ball movement in a dynamically moving tire. Hence the previous request for a camera.

kwales, IMHO you are making an apples to oranges comparison. Certainly we should have some guys on here who are physics majors or at least know about 1000% more than I do (which isn't too hard BTW)

Here's the only factor you seem to be missing in your lateral movement argument and comparing it to people on a plane; How much gravity through centrifugal force is being placed on the balls to basically keep them in a given relative position that would resist the less than 1G of lateral force in a corner??

You seem to be under the assumption that the balls are constantly in major movement in the tire. That is just not true. They fling out @ around 10mph and get fairly evenly distributed. When the wheel tries to bounce up, they momentarily move down on the fore and aft of the tire slightly countering that movement of the wheel. This happens constantly. These little balls have a tremendous amount of G-force holding them to the tire (this is where the physics guys who can calculate this come in). A .20 gram ball in a circumference spinning at approx 1K rpms @ 60mph =??? G-force on that ball?? Most folks are aware that a connecting rod at rest weighs around 1.5 pounds depending on the type of rod used. Spin that rod 3K rpms on a crank and it acts with the force of hundreds of pounds of force due to the amount of G-force placed on it.

When you turn into a corner, most folks cars can't muster barely 1G of lateral force on a .2 gram ball that may have the force of 10 - 20Gs or more on it. I don't know if the spinning Gs would effect and multiply the lateral Gs, I'll differ to those with bigger brains than I

Another factor is the gyro effect that will counter any force that is not in line with the spinning of the tire.

Now, back to that plane. You put a plane in a 4-5G loop and no one will be moving from their seat, this I can assure you from experience. You end up right back at the gyro thing where its darned hard to counter gravity and circular motion.

Again, I will differ to those that have bigger brains with this stuff for the specific science of it. All I know is that it works and works really, really well.

This makes sense to me. I tried the dyna beads on my mini van. I don't remember how much I used. but It was a bathroom dixi cup full per tire. They didn't work. I tried them on my van to see how well they would work before using them on my 914. I ended up tossing the beads and using weights. The test may have been a dis-service to the dyna beads. Maybe i should have added more beads. My tires are wide. Maybe I should have had the tires balanced before adding the beads. Once the beads were in, I didn't think that having the tire store balance them would work because the beads would be messing with the balance while on the machine.

Just to

I have read in a few other forums that discuss these and they are all of the belief these are more for vehicles going in a straight line.

I went onto the website and read where it has them for motorcycles. So I am a little confussed by that.

However, in my own rational thought, for curves and the effect these may have on sidewalls may change things. Again, lower speeds may be fine. If you are traveling in speeds over 80 MPH the sidewalls may not react well to a force from these. Try it if you will but it may end in a very sad way.

.........Well ONE truck tire store "guy" should not be enough information to finalize your decision....I used the balance and seal, liquid, back in the day on R-7/8s Good Year race tires....Before I started using the stuff, in the rain you could see, and wipe off the 'foam', air leaking thru the sidewalls...As you know Race tires leak down pretty fast, and you can ruin a good tire by crushing/breaking / brusing the sidewall if it deflates completely...this will happen on street tires even today......A buddy of mine tried the stuff-and just had a mess...He put 10.ounces in or more.!!!!..The truck tire "guy"...put in the same amount that they use in truck tires..(way too much)..at the track we had to remove the tire valve and drain most of it out.....he probably had 1-2 oz left...approximately the weight of a metal weight if that had been used....putting in too much obviously isn't a good idea or a solution....this may be why your truck tire "guy"said what he said....I do know that It works.It will seal the tire, and balance the tire and keep it running cooler.

Sorry, the "guy" is a former Big O shop owner, and a 30 year rep for commercial tires.

Oh, and he didn't say it didn't work. Put another way, he says 30% of the people who tried it on passenger vehicles said they felt it did work, mainly because they drove it and higher speeds without so much stopping...

Makes sense.

I would love for something like this to work, but from my days in working in auto parts, most things max out under specific conditions and are marginal for everyday stuff.