ok , been lurking here for a while hesitant to post because I don't have anything useful to add to any threads, and I don't have any important questions.

but hell, I need to start sometime....

a bit about me: currently own '08 Cayman S... my daily driver, and occasional HPDE car. I also have a 1990 BMW 325i built to SPEC E30 race spec (built by me and my friends and local shop). I don't race , but that is my normal track car for HPDE... do roughly and even per month. About 12-15 track days per year total. I have the E30 because obviously cheaper to build out than the cayman, and every single conceivable part is cheaper and its super easy for me to learn to work on(I am not very mechanical, so I am learning about working on cars as I go along). And its fun and great car for learning to drive.

Problem is, I don't like BMW. Have always been a porsche guy... funny thing is I also don't like 911's (never have). My first car and highs school graduation present was a 72 914 1.7. Slow as hell, but fun (this was in 89). Then I had a 944S2 and now my Cayman and of course a whole bunch of fun non-P cars in between. But always been a fan of 914... maybe just a sentimental thing, not sure.

Ok , so that is my introduction to the site.

now my question: this is just looking for opinions / ideas / thoughts... for me to think about. for a track car, should I go with 914-6 (conversion due to my budget) or my cayman S ? I mean, if I drop $20K on a 914, will I still wish I was driving the Cayman on the track instead? Or is the 914 going to be more fun? remember, I don't race (only in lemons races, with a diff car), I am only out having fun at HPDE in upper-intermediate or advanced groups. I want to have FUN and be safe and be able to afford to fix my car and learn to work on it and have it look good.

So, build out my Cayman? or pick up one of these REALLY nice 914-6 up for sale right now.

Would love input from people who have driven BOTH on the track... which one did you like better??

Here's how I would look at it. Can you afford to total the Cayman?
As much as I would love to build a Cayman as a pure track car I have some idea of how devastated I'd be if I had to write it off.
On the other hand, destroying a 914 that I spent 20-30K on would be painful but I'd get over it pretty quickly if I had to start over. In fact I nearly wrote off my FProd car last year (for the 3rd time).
Then again, I am satisfied with a car that is unlikely to ever go faster than 125mph. My thrills come from wheel to wheel competition in close quarters with no "13/13" restriction.
I have no trouble scaring myself sh!tless in a 180hp car by driving it like there was no tomorrow.

Thanks for coming on Diry evo. I on the other hand, have a 1969 911 on steroids that I can drive on the road, but I use it mostly on the track and AX. With the car passing its 41st BD, I am more reluctant to drive it 10/10ths because parts are becoming more rare and the value of the car is rising. So, now I have a 1972 914 in which I am planning to put a boxter trany, and a killer 4 cylinder to go have fun in.
Try the same, and you;ll have the best of both worlds.

yeah, well put. Even though I don't do any real racing except Lemon & Chump a few times a year, I also am not a real HP junky. My thrill is in the corners, not how fast I can go between them. While I guess I can afford to total the Cayman, I am not sure I can mentally afford it... it would kill me to be "out" that much money and probably ruin the whole hobby for me (tracking my cars)... so with what you are saying in mind, yeah, maybe the 914 is the way to go. For that matter my E30.. but I hate BMWs (for no good reason, just kind of never liked them).

Then again, I have no emotional attachement to my cayman at all... I would feel really bad if I totalled a nice classic 914.

I'd feel bad if I totaled a real 6 but not a four. That's why I have what I have and drive it like I do. It is really hard not to smile ear to ear in the corners. I have driven Elises around the big track, well PRI, and I like my 914 better. I have only autocrossed other cars. I have had the opportunity to drive some very unbelievable cars and really enjoyed all of them. However, there is just something about the sound and smell of the 914s that keeps me in them.

If I was at the point of deciding to track prep a Cayman or a 914 it would be a tough choice. Maybe I should come down and take your Caymen around Thunderhill and let you know

Just keep in mind that if you really start to head down the slippery slope, you can spend as much on a 914 as a Cayman, or damn close to it. (Not that I would know firsthand, LOL).

Obviously both can be a lot of fun. You need to decide what you want to end up owning in the end, and what sorts of organizations and events you want to do as the rules and existence (or lack) of other drivers in the same class can be an important consideration too.

Hey Dirty Evo,

You're getting some good advice, starting with what can you afford to crash.

Another way to look at your conundrum is defining your GOAL: Do you want to go FASTER? Do you want a Better handling chassis? Do you like Mid-Engine feel?

I do have some racing experience: Formula Fords, a bunch of years with a Datsun 510 sedan (chassis design copied from BMW) and also had a 944S2 that I ran on-track. I'm now running a 914-V8 and its a handful. Here's my view (for what its worth):
-The Cayman will be better handling than any other of you alternatives with a 35 yr newer suspension layout...but an EXPENSIVE toy.
- I haven't driven a Caymen, but expect it to be almost as well balanced as the 944. The 944 High polar moment design was amazing ontrack: it felt as though it were impossible to spin the car....best basic balance I had seen since the FF.
-The BMW has the same basic suspension as a 914 and after years with the 510,
I don't see that much down-side to a sedan: in race trim BMWs hold their own.
-The BMW is already about as fast as a 914-6, unless you go bananas on the 911 engine, only lacking a bit a agility.
----So what is it you hope to get from an OLD 914 that will be more satisfying than the BMW (maybe with some more chassis development)?

It all comes down to your Desired GOAL, you're the DRIVER!

Best of luck,

Terry

yeah, I have to say, the E30 with its measly 168hp or whatever it is keeps up with some serious machinery on the track. it surprises me... how well balanced it is and just fun.

I think with a 914, I am not looking for anything "more" than the E30... in fact, I guess what I am looking for is something comparable to the E30, but that I feel more of a sentimental attachment to. I have always been a Porsche and VW guy... i never dreamed of owning a Ferrari or a corvette.. I wanted a 914-6 or a 944 or 928... or VW squareback or notchback or GTI.... those were my dream cars as a teenage boy.

ok, so which gets me to the point... with a 914 I am looking for the rawness and mechanical feel of the E30.. stripped down, completely communicative... nothing between me and machine... but in a car that means something to me. I LOVE the feel and performance of the E30... but there just is no emotion there for me. Its enough speed and great handling for me.. I don't need more performance, just more "emotion".

to me, the cayman lacks the rawness... everything is perfect, but its a little too sterile and clean... the E30 stripped down is raw and dirty (figuratively)..

I guess my hope is that the 914 gives me the performance and feel of the SPEC E30 car enhanced by the passion I would have for a 914 (as opposed to the indifference I have for the BMW).

a little too touchy feely? yeah, i know, sounds cheesy, but hopefully you guys know what I am mean.

I think you guys are all helping me answer my own questions... THANKS... I knoew getting some other input would help clarify things.

Why not a Boxster? It will deliver "rawness"

and entertain the spectators as well. Look at the smiles on their faces as I slide PB thru that feature

928's make great track cars, can be bought dirt cheap, and once gutted of all the widgets that rarely work what you have left is very rugged.

I think they're laughing at the ugly cage you guys got there ...


I'd love to build a track Cayman, that would be a blast to drive!
Andy

Functional and not the prettiest yes, but 100% legal for SCCA roadrace and hillclimb competition. Had to go up high for me and lowering seat more wasnt a choice as I share the car with a variety of drivers who depend on being high enough for good visbility at AX events. Believe me its a great cage when your in the car as it doesnt interfer with driving at all. Very easy to get in and out of the car too. And structutually it makes the car very rigid. No more chassis flex at all.

On cages. I havent been in a 914 of spec Boxster yet that didnt have bars dangerously close to my head with very little top clearence.

I have never been a pretty car guy - if I were I would probably be driving a Cayman or 911.

With the budget mentioned, there are quite a few 914-6 race cars available, many for a lot less.
I bet you could find a nice race 914 that you could personalize. Cars are selling for less these days. Who knows, you could get lucky and find your dream car.

Track down Randal. The Beast is for sale under $25K Thats a bargin.

A Cayman is pretty tough little car even in stock form.
I drove a CaymanS last September at Laguna and it was quite impressive. I was able to keep up with all the 911s and even a few turbos on track, and I was on street tires
With just a few tweeks you have a fairly formidable track/AX car that is still streetable...

but a well prepared 914 is still a ton of fun

+1

That particular car looks like a steal and there are LOTS of other deals out there right now too. I know I have spent vastly more money and time on my own car than I could have bought it for in a market such as this one now.

BTW the Interseries Caymans that have been discussed a bit are apparently around $90-100K turnkey. I'm sure you could build one for less if you have the know-how, time, and parts sources.

I had great opportunity to be on track with a fairly well setup Cayman S with nice moton setup, rear cage, race tires with Mooty (fast local driver) at the wheel. I was in my 2.5 liter 914-6.

We had great low traffic opportunity on Laguna Seca to see how cars compared. The two of us were consistently clicking off 1.42 to 1.43 laps at Laguna. He started in front of me by the end of the session I was in front of him but he let me pass. I was putting about a second a lap on him once I was in front. No way I could have passed him in the straights however when I was in back of him. 914 was faster in turn entry and mid turn Cayman was faster on turn exit and straights. He was surprized that I had such a small motor. But then not many people have driven high reving high compression twinplug 2480cc sixes. Those motors fly on the track.

Cayman in-car video - HSR Sebring

There's an impressive pass under braking around 1:22...damn those things seem to have some serious deceleration capability.

And if money is not a limitation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8137ufJbzR0

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4445300/Alzen_..._Cayman_onboard

HMM, good question.


First, find a real advisor, that isn't trying to sell you their services or have any other agenda when they advise you... LOL

Chris has a good point, prepare to race something you can afford to walk away from and not injure your financial stability. The days of irresponsible racing are pretty much over, because they can't be sustained.

Before you buy a car, or have one built, find out where you want to race. Some guys like PCA, or POC, some guys like SCCA or NASA. Also, what type of racing you want to do.

If it is autocross, prep the Cayman or buy a race prepped 914. Great car (the Cayman), still under warranty (sorry PCNA) and you will have a great time, but be prepared for some fairly expensive maintenance costs. Find out where the local guys are racing, and contact some racers in advance and tell them you are thinking about starting racing. IF you contact a shop, they will guide you to what they do, which may not be what you want to do. The 914 is light agile and cheap to run, and there are lots of high performance parts out there new and used, and several 914 specialists to make the car into exactly what you wnat.

If roadracing is your choice, I would not choose the Cayman. But if you insisted, build it to a SPEC set of rules, this way you have a chance to compete against cars that are fairly equal. Don't get me wrong, you will still have a few in the clas that will prep to the inth degree, usually because they can't drive....

The 914 would be a good choice, but two things come to mind. 4 cyl engine reliability, and the vintage of the car. While I raced one at a high level, I also had the ability of building my own engines, and knowing enough good people (such as Chris Foley) to help with the items I did not have the tools or ability to do. The 6 cylinder is a better choice and will run many hours without major rebuilds, but the cost to build one is a bit higher. If you choose to run a four cylinder car, you must a have a spare engine. Most competitors have at least one spare and one mule engine with reduced horsepower.

Next brings us to the Boxster. This would be my choice at this time and the reasons are a few. One, the cars are getting very affordable, there is a Spec Series which has many cars and is very popular, and also, you can run a Spec Boxster in many different classes and organizations. NASA, PCA and POC all have Spec Boxster classes for the 2.5 liter Boxster. SCCA has ITR, and may soon have E production if I get my way. The cars are well known, and there are several for sale at reasonable prices.

I would suggest you buy a car already built. This will eliminate many issues you will have trying to build your own. Make sure you take someone with you that knows race vehicles and at least has some high level amateur experience. Just because they say the "race" doesn't mean shit. The way you step into this, will guide your success.

Good Luck,



Erik Madsen

Hey Dirty Evo:

Now I understand! We just have to go with what "gets us going."

I'm thinking about the Datsun 510, which after a blow-up sat for years, but I just didn't have the motivation to rebuild it and take it back out. It just didn't fire me up....So I sold it.

Then I bought the 944. I was a beautiful Gran Tourisimo and was wonderfully balanced, as I mentioned. But after the great week-end at Laguna Seca, I realized that to get it where I wanted it would take a ton of work & $$. The car was wonderful but just TOO CIVILIZED.

That's when I sold the 944, bought a 914 from eBay and launched into my V8 conversion. It is the harriest thing I have ever driven and much faster than my Dad's 289 Cobra. I was aiming for "challenging" but my bud is right in tagging it "The Beast."

So I guess you need to get a 914, roll up your sleeves and make it what you want.
For pancake motor cars, this forum has a lot of experience in set-up, so that should be a good help for you.

Enjoy,
Terry

excellent opinions and feedback guys!! thanks!!! everybody pointed something different out that I need to consider.. really appreciate it!!

Randals Beast for $25K would be a great car. Perfect club racer.

I agree. You couldn't build that car for 3 times the money unless you did it all yourself. Fantastic car.

I'm very tempted to buy it but I'd be killed on sight by my wife...she wants a bigger house.