The budget thread got me thinking, would (or do) any of you own only classic cars as an alternative to having a mix of new and old? I'm not talking about just you, but would you let your wife and kids run errands or commute 30 minutes to work daily in a 30+ year old car if it was restored or a well maintained survivor?

Would the maintenance be cheaper than car / lease payments? (I think yes)

Can they be as reliable as today's cars? (I think yes again)

Can they be as safe? (twice the metal but half the safety features, tough call)

Can they meet your needs? (grocery hauler, team bus, tow vehicle)

I (and my wife) could definitely see losing the volvo for something with a lot of style and cheaper to boot. But I think if it left her stranded more than 3-4 times a year it would be a deal breaker. She's a teacher so showing up to work a few hours late doesn't cut it.

For example purposes only:

depends on the car, Jon.
A restored older car is just as reliable as a new car. A restored car done by a cheap idiot will cost your twice as much as a new car.

Brads wife drives her 914 everyday I thought without much problem. Bottom line is a good car is a good car, a POS is a POS.
A friend has a new BMW that is in the shop more than he drives it to work. Misses more work dropping it off and picking it up, getting rides and all that crap. Point being, just because something is new doesn't mean its trouble free.

Geoff

That presumes you have the time to do all the maintenance yourself.

Time is the biggest factor for me. A 20 year old BMW 320i used to be my daily driver until I bought a '94 VW. The 320 was pretty reliable but it always needed a little bit of this and little bit of that. I couldn't imagine having to maintain a classic daily driver for both me and a wife.

The new VW was a god-send. It liberated me from having to work on my daily driver every other weekend in order to keep it on the road. It also provided me with a car I could drive anywhere at a moment's notice. I never felt comfortable driving the 320 to Tahoe or LA.

probably, but there would be more precautions taken, in case something happens and the car breaks down... she would keep a cell phone and AAA on speed dial. even a perfect 30 year old car will have more chances to break down than the 99 honda she has now...



depends, you can't compare any 30 year old car to a modern japenese(honda, nissan) car, but it may be more reliable than some cars that are around today... cars like suzukis and kia's are always on the side of the road... and it would be about the same as an american car... hit or miss


I don't think so. driving a 30 year old car can become dramatic when you are used to modern brakes on modern light cars... and anyone who's ever experienced a blow out on old cars knows they are much more dramatic than on a modern car that hardly pulls at all when a blowout occurs.(unless you drive an explorer )


SURE, needs are easily satisfied, it's the "wants" that get you... an electric car would satisfy my needs, but I wouldn't want one... a Viper doesn't really satisfy needs, but I would want one

basically, I've thought about getting an old truck as a daily driver... but I don't think I would put my wife(who knows nothing about cars) in something old unless I WAS POSITIVE it was reliable and safe... I MIGHT put her in an old mustang, as long as it had a 5-10 year old motor instead of a 35 year old motor... not just rebuilt, NEW...

forgot one:

not in the current situation I'm in... my wife paid her car off in 3 years paying < 200/month... the car is paid for, and hondas are virtually maintenance free... all they need is gas and oil for a LONG, LONG time

I think also that all of the above greatly depends on the kind of driving you do. If you do a lot of easy highway miles, an older car will likely be just fine. If you do a lot of stop and go or short trips, older cars dont hold up as well. Especially lots of city driving, which doesn't really let the car warm up, and can cause premature wear on various systems.

Newer cars are much better equiped for stop and go because they warm up faster, have more efficient fuel and emissions systems etc..

i wouldn't put my GF in one of these unless she was mechanically inclined. she's not, she drives a 01 VW jetta that she pays mucho dinero for, and that is just fine by everyone!

i do agree, though, that it's much cheaper in the long term to buy late-model cars, used. buy a toyota, change the oil everyonce in a while. done. if you have a european 30 year-old car that is super-reliable, then someone -- either you or a PO -- has put a lot of time and energy (i.e. $$) into it to make it that way. which, frankly, is the way it should be!!

needless to say, we have other needs satiated by driving our little cars!

Jon,
it all depends on the car. Not just the make/model, but the specific car and it's past. I'm not married, but if it were a good, solid car then I'd let my gf or wife drive it. If it's not 95 - 100% then there are times when it could probably get aggravating. If you like to travel (in your car) then a new(er) car may make more sense.

New car = way better gas mileage (generally)

Not including SUVs.

Well, I'm inot my second week with only having the 914 to drive daily. So far so good. I'm having such a good time driving it too and from work, that I would buy another classic. I'll keep the wife an kids in a new car though. I figure two $10k cars are better than one $20k car. If one breaks, I have the other to drive. While I really wanted a 964 or even 993, it's just not the right time. I will look at 944s, early 928s and early 911s though.

Hey Jon;

Lose the Volvo, they suck anyway. Be selective, and buy whatever classic you want. My wife and I have been driving "classic" cars for years. It's all a matter of buying the best example of whatever model has caught your eye. Right now we are in a '84 and '90 vehicles (not counting the 914 which is a toy car for me), hardly old but definately classics. I've noticed that we tend to cycle between very old cars (30-40 years old) and later model (10-15 year old). Right now we are in the later model cycle.

From a financial standpoint a nice old car in the $5-$10k range will cost less than any new car no matter what happens. Here's a link that show the true cost to own for a Volve S60. You can plug in other cars just for fun. In a nut shell the cost of a new car will be, over the first 5 years of ownership, pretty equal to or even greater than (if you choose poorly) the cash price of the car new.

If you're really worried about reliability first find a good local independant mechanic and figure out what he likes to work on and buy one of those. I've found that if your mechanic loves your car "things" go a lot smoother.

In terms of reliability you may also wish to consider that you can pick up a car from Enterprise or the like (even have it delivered to your home) to sub in for the times when the classic will be down for a day or more. You could do this more often than you've probably got tolerance for and still be $$$$ ahead.

From a safety standpoint most old cars leave something to be desired. Most cars be retrofitted with 3 point belts quite easily. My basic view is that I don't like lightwieght old cars for daily drivers. I also prefer high end old cars (Mercedes for example) because they were typically 10 years ahead of lesser makers in terms of safety features. In any case you've got to manage those risks on your own.

You really need to be honest with yourself in considering what you use your cars for without excessively wieghting the boundary conditions (once a year drive to the inlaws in FL or whatever).

Have fun,
Kevin

my 914 is my daily driver.
it's reliable and safe (as far as a sportscar can be safe) ...

the only problem i have is not with the car but rather with the horrible road conditions in the bay area.
anyone here used the bay bridge on-ramp on 2nd street lately?

if the car is in good working order and you feel comfortable with it's features (or better, the lack of) then why not?

Andy

Personally; I think vehicles built from the 90's on are far more reliable than any I owned prior to that time. My wife's 96 Avalon is over 8 years old, it's the longest we've ever kept a car. The only reason we haven't traded it is it just keeps on running perfect, no wierd noises, no squeaks. It's like vanilla ice cream, boring but good.

It also depends on how old is "old". Cars from the 50s require more maintenance not only because they're 50 years old, but because cars just required more maintenance then. The 914 is new enough to have (relatively) no maintenance suspension bits, for example. The typical 50s car had grease fittings, and required re-greasing every few thousand miles.

My big wonder is what's going to happen in 20 years, when all of these "new" cars are "old". For some cars, you'll be roughly in the same shape as you'd be with the 914 now. The Miata is an example, as they've always been pretty simple. A current BMW, however, with all of those gizmos: how many of them will still be working when the wiring is 20 years old? It's one thing to repair lights or the horn or a simple ignition system. It's quite another to keep all of that iDrive stuff working, or the VANOS system, or the ABS/traction/stability control systems.

Ultimately, it's these concerns that have driven me to only have "old" cars. I don't want to have to ever fix a 20 year old ABS system. Right now, none of my cars even have brake servos!

If you bought a new car today with ABS and all the modern features why would you care whether you could service it 20 years from now? You're not going to own it 20 years from now.

ABS is just another technology. It can't be any harder to learn than D-jet.

I find working on newer cars to be a pleasure. My 1994 Jetta was my first new car purchase. I'm still driving it (140K) because it's been so rock solid reliable and maintenance free. I never though I'd keep it this long but it looks like it will last another 5 years or so.

The only problem I've really had on it is that the check engine light started coming on and the car was running rough. I jumpered the OBD jack as explained in the Bentley manual and the fault codes blinked out on the dash display. The result was a bad cam position sensor. A quick trip to the dealer and 20 minutes of my time and the car was perfect again. Could you imagine if the D-jet computer could tell us what's wrong?

I drive 5 miles to work. That means in the amount of miles I put on the 70 driving it home I could have driven it for over a year without it costing a dime except gas (ok I added a pint of oil in 1700 miles). If you own an older car be prepared to have to fix things, unless you start off by doing a comleat rebuild of everything on it.

Some cars are POS from the factory others aren't. My dad had a 65 Chev Belair with a 230ci six that had over 350,000 mi when he lost track of it. Change the oil every 1000 mi and service it when needed. My dad had to have a good car. If he didn't get to work, we didn't eat. So he treated it with respect and changed the oil and filters, ect. on time.

I have a newer truck for road trips, but I can't see myself buying anything newer untill the manufactures stop making such uggly trucks. Plus the thought of a "drive by wire" technology scares the shit out of me. One bad transistor going out at the wrong time and your into oncoming traffic.

Jon,
I've got a couple of thoughts on this subject:

I wouldn't ask my wife to drive anything in which I didn't have a great deal of confidence. The message is, How much do I care? My wife is not mechanical and has little tolerance for machines that leave her stranded by the side of the road, regardless of how cute they are. If I want to continue to have 30 year-old iron as a hobby, I better not risk having her walk home because the points (or some other antiquated component) failed.

As a father with young kids (I was one once), I want them traveling in a car with ABS, good seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones and other safety equipment. Vote again for the modern car.

As a father with young drivers (BTDT), I voted with my dollars for reliability and safety. That's why my kids drove boring Japanese cars with ABS, air bags, crumple zones, good handling, brakes, belts and reliability. When my daughter went to college and she walked out to her car at night, I wanted that thing to START. Every time. That's why she drove a Toyota. It never failed her.

When safety, reliability and time are not the central issues (when's the last time a 50+ year old guy got molested?) then a car that was designed and built in an era with 10,000 mile tune-ups and 100,000 mile lifespans is OK. That's when the 914 comes out.

Times have changed. Cars are a lot more complex but they are far, far more reliable. Get a good, recent used car for a daily driver. Use the 914 for those days that your marriage isn't going to be on the line if the car craps out and you're late for the show.

The voice of experience.

Jon,
For my children it has to be a total saftey issue. I let them ride with me in the 914, but I don't love them enough to let them drive my 914 . They don't have the experience to drive something that could get them killed or that my boys would have to show off in. For me, I know my hudband would prefer that I only drove my 914 on short jaunts in the area, but he also knows I am an adult who has a brain and a cell phone if I need help. I have been stranded in new cars too. I get to choose! I can fit alot of shopping in the trunks of the 914. It's pretty amazing actually.

I don't like to buy new cars. I want to pay cash, and have the depreciation already deducted. I can take the $$$ that I save and invest or utilize it in other ways. My husband used to do alot of the car repairs/maintenance himself, before TOSHIBA took all of his spare time, now it is getting someone honest and good to do the work. This is true for the older cars and the newer ones.
Sherry

I absolutely refuse to own anything newer than a 1976...

as far as safety goes, the new cars are such plastic pieces of recycled junk that they need safety equipment!

Real steel is atleast 25 years old!

Out of 6 cars around here, the newsest is a 93. My daily driver is a 72 Chevy 1/2 ton. When the 914 is finished, I may restore this truck 'cause I love it. If that happens, it will get a 350 RamJet (FI) and a 700r4.

I, too, prefer older cars.

My Wrangler is a 98... and only because I got a screaming deal on it, and couldn't find an old one that hadn't been beaten all to hell.

I do have to admit that I like the better mileage that my newer fuel-injected Wrangler gets compared to some of the older gas guzzling models. That's money in my pocket.

-Rusty

I myself always liked older cars but always seemed to have a modern car & the payments that went with it.

I still have modern truck & car (03 Dakota Quad & 01 Intrepid) but I love the 914. For my wife if she wanted an older car that would be fine with me but she feels much safer in the newer cars. I guess if it was just her and I then I wouldn't care if she drove an old classic all the time but with the little guy I just think we should have a newer cars. Now if she wanted a nice weekend car or something as 2nd car I'm all for that.

-Garold

I love working on cars, as long as I don't HAVE to work on them... if I had to jack with my daily driver all the time, I'd be pissed, it would get very old. I keep a new (or newish) car for that reason...

I think it was Peter Egan in Road & Track several years ago that wrote about "The One Good Car Principle." The idea being that in your family, you have at least one "good" car. That car being something modern, that did not need the care and feeding that older cars need. The idea is that as long as you have one "good" car, then you could have a bunch of old cars and use them while they were working. If they were sidelined, you always had the one "good" car to get around in if needed.

I have pretty much adopted this theory and it has worked fairly well. The wife drives a minivan (we have 2 kids) and I split my time between my teener, a 91 Jetta GLi 2.0 and a 72 Fiat 850 Spider. The teener and the VW are daily drivers. The Fiat, well, it's a Fiat.

I would love to get my wife to drive a '61 Lincoln Continental with the suicide doors, but she will have none of that.

I'd like to get a BMW 2002, Fiat 128 Sedan, Alfa GTV, the aforementioned Lincoln or a '63 Ford Thunderbird and lose the Jetta, but the front drive is nice to have in the rain. Not to mention that with gas going up ($2.20 a gallon here in SoCal), four cylinder cars are nice to have.

As for costs, its a toss up. The new cars often include the maintenance in their warranties now and one big repair on and old car (assuming you do not do the work yourself) a year can equal the cost of monthly payments for that year. Personally, I think making car payments is a waste of money, but with low interest rates and these bundled warranties, it is tough to make that case.

The point is, I think in today's world, having the one "good" car is a good strategy if only for the peace of mind that it brings.

- Joe