I currently have a '74 2.0 that needs some body(rust) repair and got to thinking. I may spend alot of money on this repair. Which lead to the following.

How much would it cost to build a Tube Frame with un-equal length A-arms in front, 5 point rear end, buy fiberglass Fenders, hood and deck, seats, etc. etc. etc. and have a nice Track car.

Something like the Factory Five Cobra.

Use as much of an existing car or strong aftermarket parts to simplify the build and Voila, Good Track Car and OK Street car. Or Soften things up and have a Good Street Car and Adjust it back for the Track.

I have no clue about designing a Car, but I can see we have loads of talent here and most of it has been done to one level or another.

So just and intresting potential project.

Smitty

http://www.negativereinforcementracing.com/update.htm

Rand,

Thanks I read though his website the other day.

Just not sure how much money it would take for the Frame (Roller).

I also wasn't sure if someone was willing to share their design for someone else to duplicate.

Thanks

Smitty

Bring money and lots of it. The cost is high because of the design parameters. If you were talking about a front engined car like many race cars then it is easy but this is a one off special case kinda deal. That takes money.

Well now I'm really intrested.

Around SoCal they can make a Sand Rail frame and suspension for under $10,000 for a roller add VW motor and tranny do some wiring and Viola Sand Car, less body panels. I saw one that was Mild Steel, you weld it around $2,500 at a Sand and Sport Show.

Now that had Un-Equal A-Arms and VW Bug type rear.

So I'm not an ME, but if you have a frame layout, add Pickups for Front and Rear Suspension points, all adjustable heims and rods, you should have a very adjustable setup just add motor and etc. etc.

If you can get a Subi Turbo Motor for $2,000 Tranny for $1,000, rolling chassy for $10,000, shocks for $1,000, double to triple for etc. etc. etc. you should be able to have a Super Seven Type or Factory Five Type car for under $20,000.

But I don't know, that's why I'm asking, how tough it is to do a frame with where to put the suspension points. All the rest can be laid outonce you have Frame.

Smitty

Byndbad (look on this forum) has built a tube framed 914 and is now refining it.
Take some of your time & ideas and search out his posts both here and on the 914 club. If you want things handed to you, this is as close as it gets
.
We get lots of "crazy ideas" here....most all never amount to more than just that.
Ideas are free, building a car isn't. At worst you'll need a fully equipped shop, the necessary tools, the necessary skills, and a fist fulla money. If you're lacking those small items, a wheel barrow fulla money will do the trick.

I sell you mine that I started. Really cheap. Comes with the rear trailing arms. No shocks.

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Thanks Mr. Stein,

I read one site were he is converting his front end to Un-Equal A-Arms. He had a Off Road shop do the 5 link rear end. I believe they are in Corona Ca. about 40 miles from me.

I don't mind paying for peoples work, or sharing in the blood, sweet and tears helping other get their project going while I think about this.

I have a copy of Alibre CAD so I should start drawing some ideas and see how they play out.

Truck load of money would certainly help. LOL

I have access to most the equipment to pull this off and several of the people I work with Fabric their own off road items. Fabing up some Shock hoops or Roll bars isn't exactly frame and suspension design.

One makes off-road frames for himself and others. He races in SCORE desert but I'm not sure how much that relates to on road handling.

Any suggestions for good books about design that I can pick up and start reading on?

I don't need the PhD level, I'll pay someone for the actual review and modification suggestions.

Thanks

Smitty

AJ at The Baja Shop did mine. He is in Corona now. I won't say what I paid as it has been 3yrs since completion so costs likely changed and what you want will dictate actual pricing, so let him quote you. If you go dual A front and rear it will be more than I had with the struts I already owned at the time and making the 5 link. I am converting to SLA front and rear now - no fault of AJ necessarily, just me changing my mind now.

Price comparos, keep in mind it has to be all custom built to fit inside of the 914, not a jigged and copied sand rail (that is what gets costs down, repetition of the same design). Also mine was specific to using the V8, if you go with a 4 or 6 cyl the layout has to be different to cradle that. Mine comes out the top and the whole rear comes completely off.

I haven't seen a sand rail since moving east. but I grew up in SoCal about a mile from Chenowth's shop. I've seen sand rails.

My impression of sand rail frames is that they are designed for bending loads but are weak(er) in twist. Such a frame will be heavier than it needs to be for a road course and won't handle well. This can all be changed, of course, but now you're not looking at an off-the-shelf product any more.

Byndbad914,

Thanks, reading your website started the Problem. I may have to give him a Call when I get back in Ca. I'm in Tupelo MS right now.

One of the people I'm working with Races Dirt Ovel and had a catolog.

Front end - Upper tube fully adjustable A-arm $125, tube lower arims $80, Shocks from $50 each to Coil overs complete $250, Than of course Ball Joints, Steering rack, Wilwood Brakes $125 per Caliper, Mustang II Spindles 2" Drop. looks like $2,000 for a complete adjustable Front end. I also saw in a Custom Street Rod ad, for a complete Chrome Mustang II front suspension for around $2,200.

Is there something inherently wrong with using Mustang II set-up? Or Current Mustang parts, It sure would save some money using Commonly avalible parts.

The Rear - Bearing Carrier, Bearings, heims, Shocks, and Brake system look to be about another $2,000.

Frame - Chrome or Mild Steel? I know Chorme is more expensive, stronger and lighter, but cost is twice to three times as much, but would require heat Treating.

Still kicking it around.

Smitty

ArtechnikA,

Thanks, I knew that they wouldn't work for street/track applications, but I was thinking about cost and material of just the Frame. Different application, lower CG, Shorter Wheel base, but some of that should be able to transfer. But I know what I don't know.

Nothing wrong with MII stuff. If I were going to do it from scratch, starting all over again, I would consider getting C5/C6 Corvette stuff and work from there. You will need to run big wheels to fit over it (18"... maybe 17" with C5 but I know 18" is minimum with C6 stuff) but you get wide tire variety/selection. Then just make custom axles in the rear to bolt up.

You could do MII front with Cobra rear uprights off the indep suspension cars and adapt the axles to those too.

If you go with circle track stuff and just have AJ build you an upright for the rear you can do a lot of stuff, but you have to plan it well to make it all work together.

Chromoly will save weight. AJ has, or at least had, a guy in LA that can heat treat vehicles and the price wasn't bad. Less than $1K IIRC and in the grand scheme of things, that is low $. That said, AJ is a phenomenal welder and has truggies/etc out there running for years jumping and racing without a crack and no heat treat - the key is having a guy that knows his sh!t weld the thing together.

Here's a old thread with a bunch of pictures ...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=23020


Scott Yeahman's silver car started it's life on a jig, the 914 components were added later.

Roger Sheridan's car used to be a 914.


Andy

SirAndy,

Thanks for those links. There is some impressive skills and thought in those various designs.

Looks like I have some serious homework to get done.

Sheridans car was never a 914. He started with a pile of tubes. Everything on it is custom. He car was built to the mid 90s SCCA GT2 rules.

If you are building a tube chassis car, I would start with Corvette suspension. It is bullet proof and easy to come by. PLus there are plenty of aftermarket parts for them.

Funny, he told me that he used a 914 to build his car.

Either way, there is some 914 sheet-metal left on it ...
Andy

IIRC Roger's car has a stock 914 windshield frame and cowl and that was it. Cool car and Roger is a damn nice guy - recommend his body kits if you are going to go to all the trouble of a tube chassis.

I've looked at his website. That may be the best way to go to handle the body work.

On the Plus side, I may have found an ME to look at my drawings, not a racer, but he should be able to figure out a few things.

I'm attempting to learn all the Terminology.

Roll Center - Is that the axis front to back, where the body flexes or the suspension reacts??

Scrub - I read in byndbad914 front end thread about setting or having enough to get the tires warm. I'm guessing it's not the same as Toe ???

Good idea, but if I use Corvette Brakes, aren't they a bit large for a car that should weigh less than 2000 pounds? Can you have to much braking power?

I've been looking for sources for the Aftermarket parts, seems they mostly deal in Engine not suspension parts.

Smitty911,

You might find a lot of chassis fab parts here: http://www.ubmachine.com/
If nothing else, it's fun to browse through their catalog. Amazing are the low prices.

And here are your MII spindles: http://www.pitstopusa.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=5546

Andys

No such thing as too much brake. You don't want any scrub, it will fight you and make driving the car harder.

Use stock suspension components and custom shocks and springs. Sway bars will be custom as well. Toss the fiberglass spring.

The Sheridan car was a pile of tubes. He had to use certain pieces from a stock car according to the 1995 SCCA rules. I have the series of articles that European Car did on the building of that car. Very good series.

Roll center is located on both ends of the car. There is a roll center axis that represents the line between the front and rear roll centers.

If you are designing a car from scratch You will need to determine what exactly the car will be used for. A race car will have some different geometry requirements than a street car or even a track toy. Pro Drivers/experienced race drivers could have a setup that is un-drivable by many amateurs. Figure out what you are racing first then go from there.

The transaxle for our cars get very expensive very fast when you start throwing HP at them or racing them.

Well I've was thinking that a nice DE car used on the street would be the application.

I don't know why but I've always wanted to build a Car similair to the Factory Five Cobra, what stopped that project was taking a ride in one. I got behind the wheel and my feet wouldn't fit on the pedals. In the MKIII they chose to narrow the front footboxes to be able use a Modular Ford motor, they are wider so the room by your feet narrowed.

So I love my 914 and would like to duplicate that process for my Itch to go away. Reasonable? probably not, but Looking at a Raby Kit for $7,000, SDIEFI $1800, 5 lug $2,500, Dr Evil, check up $750++++, Rust repair $2,500, $3,000-$5,000 for paint and seals.

Looks like I could have $15,000 to $20,000 in making a nice daily driver. As I don't want to put roll bars inside my car.

On the Plus side I found a huge bank of Free Information here.

http://www.auto-ware.com/techref/lib_index.htm

Thank God, I read quickly.

Smitty

Bindbad914: what does your car weigh?

Last year it was around 2570 lbs. That seems like a lot to you guys, but in the 525 HP V8 world, not that bad @ 4.9 lbs/HP

Keep in mind the Mendy is around 175lbs with fluid v. a 901 being around half that, so every "little" thing adds up pretty quickly. The wing is like 15lbs with the alum uprights for example. If I went nuts on fiberglass door skins, roof skin (stock roof is around 20lbs), decklids, rear panel (I have stock rear panel and taillight assys) I could get under 2500lbs. The dry sump with twin coolers added weight, the water cooling added weight, and I have a lot of bar in the car cuz I am a-scared at the speeds it runs. Some guys like Roger Sheridan have much less bar in the car and run those speeds, but he doesn't have the same level of fear

dont talk fear with a guy running a 1600 pound car on Fontucky. Your car is in a different league. Most importantly, it is you. 2500 for a full tilt boogie like that is fine by me. I would still red line that Mindy box in top gear with a perma-grim as wide as teh wing.

When Brad Frisselle was running his 28-Oz for the IMSA GTU championship (or this mightta been the Electrodyne guys...) they discovered that they could take 25HP _out_ of the engine and have a faster car, because they were able to go done a size on R&P, down a size on driveshaft, down a size on axles, smaller, lighter clutch...

It's not always obvious that reduced power is the best path to improved performance - it's all a game of multivariate optimization. But those games are best paid by guys with sponsors and big budgets. Most of us just get to say 'this is what I've got to to work with - how do we make the best of it?'

The phrase of the week.

multivariate optimization