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Tom_T
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jun 7 2010, 02:17 AM) *

Porsche didn't "kill" the 914, VW did as they owed the Karmann plant and forced Porsche out as VW wanted the line for the new water cooled Scirroco. Porsche tried and failed to find a suitable affordable place to setup the line to keep production going but failed. The 76 MY cars bodies were made in 1975 and at the Christmas break the line was switched over to Scirroco producion. This is why Porsche came out with the 912E, to fill the gap in their line with a inexpensive car after the 914's were sold out. So you could add the 2100 912E cars to see about how many 76 914's should have sold. The question is how long would Porsche continue selling the 914 at 6-7000 cars a year? What would they have done to upgrade the model line "IF" VW hadn't pulled the assembly plant from under them...
Remember, Porsche fully owned the 914 from mid 74 as they had bought out VW at that time. They had plans for the 914 but when VW announced their plans in 1975 for the Karmann plant Porsches plans went up in smoke. dry.gif

The 924 is another story as VW pulled out of the production of this car at the final moment and the Audi plant were the cars were going to be made came to Porsche with a sweetheart deal to distribute the cars as Porsches.

I


Okay - I got your point after the 4th one posted! biggrin.gif ... twitchy finger I guess!? type.gif

I was aware the Porsche switched to the 924 after VW backed out & that before that they explored various options with the 914, but was not aware that they were booting the 914 from the Karmann plant to make room for Scirocco production.

I think that Porsche probably would've moved to the 924 though, even if they still had the Karmann plant's line available, because they wanted to try out water cooled.

What theneeded was to continue the 73 & 74 sales volume in the 20,000+ range, but the prices had just climbed too high by 75 to sell that many, plus we had a pretty bad recession here then too, depressing sales (as today).

One huge problem for all imported car makers were threatened tariffs, bad monetary exchange rates (for them importing), & the runaway inflation of the 70's, which had 76 914's selling for about what the 911s did when the 914s came out in 69/70! By 76 a 914-2L with the option cost for the AG & PG options was north of $8000 out here in CA, but smog detuned to 86 hp.

While in Fall 75 I could've gotten a new 76 2L on 100% loan vs. 75% used for my 73 2L & have about the same payments, I didn't like the big bumpers nor the lower power engine ~ & today I'd still be required to smog it every other year! blink.gif
carr914
Tom, 1st of all, my comment about the Facts was Not aimed at you, so don't get your panties in a Wad and I didn't call anybody a liar.

My point is when people offer up opinion as "Fact", then it misleads everyone that comes along. That is what is wrong with Wikipedia for instance,.

T.C.
carr914
QUOTE(ME733 @ Jun 6 2010, 09:34 PM) *

.......Thank you carr914,....for the posting of the r/t article..what was the date ,as I can not see /find it......and the specific small paragraph ,you posted previously, is not in the article you posted last.....could you help out again by providing the full page , source and date, of the small posting you made earlier....thank you.



I have the R&T On Porsche 1972-1975, which states the date of the article as Feb 1973, But they reference 1974 in the article. confused24.gif

The small paragraph Tom & I earlier referenced is on the 2nd page of the article to the right of the Headlight picture.

T.C.
ME733
...THANKS carr914..........so what I get from the road and track article is this. ROAD and TRACK states THEY changed the designation, (as THEY THOUGHT, the the 911-S and 914-S designations were too close.) and in their article ,DATED 1974, the use of the 2.0 script on the rear was enough to have them (R/T) use THAT designation.(and then apply it retroactivally to late 1972-early 1973)...914-S cars., which ALSO may have had the 2.0 script. No factory, Porsche AG, RETRACTION of the ORIGINAL 914-S advertising, sales broschures, marketing, and SALES of the 914-S exists...therefore R/T published their opinion....only....and in 1974.......Now you ask what is the point of all this....a part of the point is my curosity over IF ALL... 1973 2.0 ...cars... had ALL of the OPTIONS INCLUDED in the original introductory-914-S.. and advertisd as such. DID ALL 1973-2.0 914,s have ALL the options?....I don't think so.................
MDG
Not really wanting to belabor this . . . . but your supposition above has zero value. You've misread the article, in particular the paragraph both Tom and TC singled out.

R&T coined the 914/2 moniker only and only for the purposes of having a name for the damned thing so they could write a story about it. By the time this article was written - and I'd wager it was written summer/fall of '72 - Porsche (or as R&T states the 'Home Office'), had already killed the 914 S attempt by NA
URY914
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 6 2010, 11:04 PM) *

QUOTE(URY914 @ Jun 6 2010, 06:51 AM) *

Frankly, I'm confussed by all this. WTF.gif Is there a conclusion in less than 25 words?


1. Porsche+Audi marketed the 914/4 2.0 "fully loaded" as the "914 S" in ads & sales brochures from Summer 1972 to about Jan/Feb 1973, then Porsche made them stop.

2. The British Distributor similarly marketed the 914/4 2.0 from the outset through 1976 as the 914SC, but was never told to stop.

3. Neither was ever badged as either a 914S or 914SC.

4. If one is interested, read the stuff posted here from that 1970's period.

More than 25 words, but I'm sure you can wade through the 4 points if you're reading this.



WOW, all this bandwith summed up in 4 points. Thank you. laugh.gif
MDG
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 7 2010, 02:04 AM) *



1. Porsche+Audi marketed the 914/4 2.0 "fully loaded" as the "914 S" in ads & sales brochures from Summer 1972 to about Jan/Feb 1973, then Porsche made them stop.


And Tom, I'm not trying to give people a hard time for giggles here but to use as an example of what T.C. was referring to, where does the above 'fact' come from?

Is this based on the MotorTrend and R&T articles? If so, with all due respect, this is an opinion based on an assumption. MT's January article calls it a 914S and a couple of months later R&T explains if differently?

I don't buy that at all. Those articles could have been - and probably were - written months before. The MT bit could have been written, edited and mocked to print by the time word came down on the name change. If they are anything like the publications I deal with, those mags are printed 2-2 1/2 months in advance of pub date which means final art for layout is a month plus ahead of that.
ME733
.........mgd YOU missed the point ....and intentionally, in my opinion.....what I was getting to , or at....as my LAST post clearly stated is.....were ALL 914-2 cars produced in MY 1973 constructed as ...FULLY OPTIONED CARS...(thats clear isn't it.?)...meaning ,again,.... were ALL the OPTIONS ,(as were advertised while the 914-S was being sold as such)......WERE... all the options included in EVERY 914-2, produced in MY 1973.( Is this clear enough for you to understand?).....IF NOT... then a conclusion CAN be made that the 914-S cars (produced for a period of time,)and Advertised as such, are different., by virtue of the fact they have MORE OPTIONS. Is this clear enough.
MDG
This has gone from the sublime to wa-aaaay beyond ridiculous. You think I 'intentionally' misread it because . . . . . . ? seriously? dry.gif

The reason I stated you had misread it is from the opening line of your post. The way it reads is you took it that R&T decided to can the 914S name. If that's not what you meant, it's sure how your post reads. And as this is clearly not what they actually wrote, you can see how I came to the conclusion that you misread it . . . . .

QUOTE(ME733 @ Jun 7 2010, 09:46 AM) *

..........so what I get from the road and track article is this. ROAD and TRACK states THEY changed the designation, (as THEY THOUGHT, the the 911-S and 914-S designations were too close.) .................



Anyway, enough of this nonsense. The 914S has been a pet theme of Tom's since some of his earliest posts. More power to him for putting his thoughts down.

There is nothing further of value here for me so I'm done with this time waster.

cheers, mike.
Tom_T
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 05:35 AM) *

Tom, 1st of all, my comment about the Facts was Not aimed at you, so don't get your panties in a Wad and I didn't call anybody a liar.

My point is when people offer up opinion as "Fact", then it misleads everyone that comes along. That is what is wrong with Wikipedia for instance,.

T.C.



Okay TC, I've pulled my panties out of my crack & feel much better this morning! biggrin.gif

All of those seemingly negative responses piled on top of each other just hit me wrong late last night, after spending the weekend trying to figure out whether or not the "mysterious disappearing clunk in the crankcase" of our 88 Westy is a bad bearing/etc. - needing a new engine - taking more $$'s away from my 914 resto!
dry.gif M#@$%%F$^*%$#@S*&O%$B*&@#!!!!! headbang.gif

So folks -

Sorry, but the only documentation which I've found on the Porsche AG putting an end to the 914S marketing campaign in the US/Canada, was the paragraph from the Feb 73 R&T, as well as other similar 2nd & 3rd hand sources in those 2 books in my first post referring to the "word from on high" to stop using it. Nothing first hand nor an official PAG document, but it's pretty clear what did happen from the R&T quote & I have no doubt that it did happen pretty much the way stated & P+A passed along the request to R&T not to use the "914S" in their article.

I think that MDG/Mike G, Pat G., TC (& maybe URY) got mislead skimming through the write-ups documentation of the period on the 914S story, & then focused more on some later opining about marketing strategies that I was doing as part of the "discussion" - thinking that I was instead trying to make that the focus of the topic post or trying to justify calling/badging 914-2.0's as "914S" (I was not, but anyone who wants to do so "for fun" should at least know the actual details of the story as much as can be known) - instead of what I intended: a clarification to others new to the subject that the 914S marketing campaign wasn't a few week long sidebar internal primarily or only to the Porsche AG & Porsche+Audi (US/Canada) entities.

I think that some folks are just the types who put the "914S" into the category of NARM (Not A Real Model - which it was not as far as the factory was concerned, even if P+A would've preferred that be the model name) - similar to the way the 356/911/912 fanatics put all 914's as NARP (Not A Real Porsche) - and so in their minds they just write it off as some silly marketing gimmick - which in truth it was, in the same way as was the "The __[blank]__ Porsche" series of the period! biggrin.gif

But I didn't want newbies to the history on this reading their comments as if it was a few week long "flash in the pan," which it was was not.

However, their concern is probably that someone will then think that it was somehow a "real model" - which I do not believe is the case in the way in which I chose to present it - particularly with the short & sweet "No" side of the issue put first from the outset & supported further in with the Feb. 73 R&T paragraph posted, which is pretty straightforward & obvious - i.e.: not really needing further "documentation" than showing the only 2 ways in which 914/4 2.0s' were badged & the later R&T statement.

Whereas, the "yes" side merely is presenting contemporaneous documentation (P+A ads & sales materials) which is not readily available to everyone today without digging for it over the months it took me to read & collect it all (i.e.: saving others the time & trouble).

My intent again in posting this topic, is basically to present the story/history of the 914S & 914SC marketing campaigns with period documentation - NOT to debate it's pro's, cons, nor pooh-pooh the idea.

What I would've expected from other 914 enthusiasts in such a presentation - & still hope will happen - would be to add to the documentation posted on either side of the story & add constructively to the knowledge base - NOT to try to debate it, complain about being too much to read through, cast it off with flippancy, nor to run me down for having the nerve to post such "official heresy" in the first place.

As far as I know, the USA only sold fully loaded 914 2L's for the first half of the model year or maybe as far as Feb.-March 73 or so, but unfortunately Porsche+Audi here couldn't convince Porsche AG to use the 914S badging. sad.gif

At least Porsche+Audi here WAS successful from the start in convincing them only to market them as a "PORSCHE" only without that confusing & eventually counterproductive VW-Porsche badge on the back! smile.gif

So we have to be satisfied that it is a provable point that Porsche+Audi here at least marketed them & talked about them as "914S" for the first half of the 73 model year! dry.gif

... and that IS exactly what the sales guy at LA Porsche+Audi called them when I went in there in December 72 for a "Winter Break Field Trip"!!!! biggrin.gif - with my classmate whose parents eventually got him one for graduation in Spring 73!

So - let's put the debating of the issue of it aside, & focus on filling in any missing details instead, as well as adding pix of period documentation - especially for the "missing" 914SC side of the story which so far is not covered except by a few of my references.

Again - Thanx TC for posting the additional pages of the full R&T article - yes it was Feb. 73, but the 74 reference I think might have been either a misprint or reference to the next coming model year.

And come on the rest of you out there - dig through your 914 archives & add some interesting related period documentation to add to the "knowledge base" here.
popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
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Tom_T
QUOTE(URY914 @ Jun 7 2010, 10:10 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 6 2010, 11:04 PM) *

QUOTE(URY914 @ Jun 6 2010, 06:51 AM) *

Frankly, I'm confussed by all this. WTF.gif Is there a conclusion in less than 25 words?


1. Porsche+Audi marketed the 914/4 2.0 "fully loaded" as the "914 S" in ads & sales brochures from Summer 1972 to about Jan/Feb 1973, then Porsche made them stop.

2. The British Distributor similarly marketed the 914/4 2.0 from the outset through 1976 as the 914SC, but was never told to stop.

3. Neither was ever badged as either a 914S or 914SC.

4. If one is interested, read the stuff posted here from that 1970's period.

More than 25 words, but I'm sure you can wade through the 4 points if you're reading this.



WOW, all this bandwith summed up in 4 points. Thank you. laugh.gif


Sorry URY - in my enthusiasm to share stuff - I forget that some folks don't want to see/read all the other documents & stuff - & just want the "headline news" short-n-sweet, so I added a Cliff Notes summary as above at the front for others in your boat.

However, others of us enjoy reading & writing more details and appreciate the info., as well as the story behind them - as well as can be ferreted out at this point, and given "boardroom/corporate secrecy," long lost documents, etc.
Tom_T
QUOTE(MDG @ Jun 7 2010, 08:27 AM) *

... I'd wager it was written summer/fall of '72 - Porsche (or as R&T states the 'Home Office'), had already killed the 914 S attempt by NA


No Mike/All it was still in use in Nov/Dec `72 & the article was written or at least finalized around then - since my buddy & I got a tip from the LA Porsche+Audi sales manager when I went with him to look at the 914's during Nov. & Dec. `72 - & he & the sales people then still referred to the 2L as the "914S" & still were handing out brochures with 914S (which is where & when I got my original 12 pg. one). He told us in Nov. to go out to one of the canyon side roads off Mulholland Dr. (IIRC) where R&T was doing their pix for test drive from the Feb. 73 issue, where we saw them shooting that very same black 914 2.0 under that oak tree in the one pic, before they ran us off! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(MDG @ Jun 7 2010, 11:44 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 7 2010, 02:04 AM) *

1. Porsche+Audi marketed the 914/4 2.0 "fully loaded" as the "914 S" in ads & sales brochures from Summer 1972 to about Jan/Feb 1973, then Porsche made them stop.

Is this based on the MotorTrend and R&T articles? If so, with all due respect, this is an opinion based on an assumption. MT's January article calls it a 914S and a couple of months later R&T explains if differently?

I don't buy that at all. Those articles could have been - and probably were - written months before. The MT bit could have been written, edited and mocked to print by the time word came down on the name change. If they are anything like the publications I deal with, those mags are printed 2-2 1/2 months in advance of pub date which means final art for layout is a month plus ahead of that.


Yes it is in part based on those 2 articles from Jan. & Feb. 1973 - as well as from other articles in the 914 Portfolio book & other magazines, as well as in the Brian Long book and others. The story is around in many sources.

I believe that I backed my dating up by 2 months from Feb. 73 as the possible timing for the decree from PAG for P+A to stop, but even if it were 3-4 months as you suggest may have been the case - that is still Sept/Oct. of 72 - but their change wasn't fully implemented until sometime after Nov./Dec. `72 by my own personal & first hand experience at the time. However, up until this point my intent was only to provide period documentation on the subject at hand, rather than my college days "field trips" to the dealership a few blocks away & elsewhere.

I personally know because I was there with my own eyes & ears in Nov. & Dec. 1972 to see & hear the 914S term in use at Porsche+Audi dealerships, who continued using the 914 sales brochures & print ads with "914S" well into Dec. `72 & early 1973. If PAG had wanted to effect the change completely in the Summer or Fall of 1972 - as you are suggesting, then certainly they would not have been still handing out brochures with 914S in them during Dec. `72 & Jan. 73. Thereafter, from about Mar. 73 or so until the end of the 73 MY in June/July 73, they simply used the 914 designation alone with reference to the 2.0 motor - as I posted in the 2 post-change ads from Spring 73, as far as I can recall or have seen since.

IIRC - even Pat Garvey has said in the past that he recalled the dealer's sales people calling it a 914S &/or having the brochures with that terminology when he was in the in mid-1972 (Summer or Fall - I don't know which).

BTW - a group of us also went to the inaugural Long Beach Grand Prix the following model year, and asked the reps there "whatever happened to the "914S" designation?" upon seeing the new 74 MY brochures with "914 2.0," & they told us that Porsche told them to stop using it midway through the `73 model year.

Whether or not PAG wanted to end it before Dec. 72 - Jan. 73 - the "hard copy" fact remains that both print ads (I personally have a B&W 914S ad from a Dec. 72 publication) & magazine articles - in addition to the sales materials noted above - with "914S" references, were all still in circulation during Dec. 72 - Jan. 73. Ergo - it had NOT been fully withdrawn & wound-down until halfway through the 1973 MY - regardless of when PAG's intent, first notice, notifying R&T for their article, etc. occurred.

While it's interesting information on the timing of the R&T magazine article's possible publication process & timing - in terms of the function & presentation to consumers, it is a moot point because the public was still seeing "914S" all through the first 6+ months of the 73 MY - which is an undeniable fact per the publications posted here & elsewhere - whether you &/or others "buy it" or not.

QUOTE(MDG @ Jun 7 2010, 12:20 PM) *


Anyway, enough of this nonsense. The 914S has been a pet theme of Tom's since some of his earliest posts. More power to him for putting his thoughts down.

There is nothing further of value here for me so I'm done with this time waster.

cheers, mike.


Mike - perhaps you came into this thinking that this was my "pet theme" & therefore presumed that I was trying to prove something more than what happened in the "914S" saga? confused24.gif

In previous posts I had reacted to some folks claiming that there never was anything at all about a "914S" - since I knew that there was from my personal first hand experience. Here I was just trying to provide some actual documentation to & references of the "914S marketing campaign", how it was presented in officially sanctioned documents & ads, & approximately the timing & duration of the campaign - nothing more.

There is more that you could add, if you have any further documents &/or information on the matters at hand......then by all means please do so! type.gif

However, if your intent is to prove me wrong & question my & others personal first hand knowledge from that time - & try instead to make a case that is was a fluke ended by September of 1972 - then, yes you are wasting your time here because there were clearly documents & publications in circulation to the public with reference to "914S" up to & including at least January 1973 - irrespective of when they were prepared. dry.gif

If that is the case, then I really do not understand why you would want to take such a hard line position to shoot down myself & other members who were actually there "back in the day" buddy, cuz you're not usually that way on here!!?? confused24.gif

Cheers Back at Ya! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
carr914
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 7 2010, 03:28 PM) *


So - let's put the debating of the issue of it aside, & focus on filling in any missing details



Tom, you kind of opened up that can-o-worms when you originally named this Thread "Myth or Fact" biggrin.gif

The other thing is when you talk about what Dealership Salesman called the car. I guarantee you when I walk into a Dealership, I know more about the car I'm looking at than any Salesman in the place. Car Salesman are usually the laziest dumbass's on the planet. Heck a friend of mine bought a Dodge van a couple of years ago that the Saleman & accompaning paperwork said was a V-8 when it was a V-6. Boy did they eat that.

OK back to the subject, has anybody seen a 914SC? Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

T.C.
MDG
Tom, I'll go back on what I said about being done with this thread only to reply to your last post and only so you don't continue to misunderstand any of my posts.

I wasn't being hardnosed to anyone. My point about your 'pet theme 914S', frankly, is because you have brought this up more than anyone else ever has. It IS a recurring topic with you, Tom. I never said there was anything wrong with that.

I then said more power to you for putting it all down. Seems like a pat on the back to me, no?

My post you quoted - and edited - as you are well aware, was not even directed at you. I think my full response clearly shows what I was saying, to whom and why. And yes, with all due respect, for me this topic is a time waster. Just my opinion - don't expect you to share it . . .

and one question to go along with T.C.'s about the SC as I really don't remember; was the 911 even called an SC then? I thought that model name came a year or so after the demise of the 914 confused24.gif I know there was a 911S when the ill-fated 914S arose but did Porsche even use the SC name during the 914 run?

Anyway, as a nice parting gift, here's a shot of my '73 2.0's ass biggrin.gif


Click to view attachment
carr914
The 911SC started in 78, but there was a 356 Carrera SC and now there is a New 911 Model SC ( but only available in Europe)

So during the era of the 914, the 911 models consisted of 911, T, E, some leftover L, R, S, Carrera 2.7, Carrera 3.0, Carrera RS, Carrera RSR, Turbo Carrera, & Carrera RS Turbo.
MDG
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 07:30 PM) *

The 911SC started in 78, but there was a 356 Carrera SC and now there is a New 911 Model SC ( but only available in Europe)

So during the era of the 914, the 911 models consisted of 911, T, E, some leftover L, R, S, Carrera 2.7, Carrera 3.0, Carrera RS, Carrera RSR, Turbo Carrera, & Carrera RS Turbo.


Thank you, sir.

I thought the SC badging came about after the fact. So technically, and no Tom I am not slagging you here - just attempting to round out all the facts for the record, the UK 914SC was not a confilct of interest as far as piggy-backing onto the cachet of a concurrent 911 in the way the factory thought the 914S moniker was doing?
URY914
When in referance to a 914, the "SC" stood for "Slow Car".
carr914
lol-2.gif
sixerdon
OK. Now I'll throw my .02 cents in.
I have here a copy of Christophorus No. 103, Feb '73 issue. For those that don't know, Christoforus has been the factory magazine issued every other month since the mid-50's. In this issue, it mentions that in early October, 1972, that "The traditional annual meeting of American Porsche-Audi Dealers was held in Germany for the first time." It goes on to say "Invited were all dealers........of the 14 P-A general distributorships in the US...and the P-A division of VoA, Inc."
"10 October: Conference in Ingolstadt. Highlight: the introduction of all 1973 models, particularly the 914/2.0 (two liter roadster) and Audi 80. Enthusiastic reception for these new cars."
So, what do you want to read into this? That the dealers are seeing these models up close for the first time at this time of year? Porsche has for many years introduced new models at the Frankfurt Auto Show just a few weeks before. It was the 911 RS that was the highlight, not the 914/2.0. And, you will notice that the factory refered to it then as 914/2.0.

Next is a PCA Panorama issue from 11/72 that describes ..."the introduction of the more powerful 914S, with a 2 liter engine..." and it goes on to list all the "standard equipment" (not optional as has been mentioned above) including the appearance group.

The 12/72 issue of Pano has an article by Chuck Stoddard, then PCA National Tech Chair and later PCA President. In his article he mentions the 914 2.0. No 'S' is mentioned at all. If you know Chuck, you will know that he had his own dealership in Willoughby, OH for many years before Porsche bought him out. (in the late 70's I believe) Chuck was the leading cheerleader for the 914 back in the day when many PCA members wanted to ban the 914 from PCA. When Chuck spoke on Porsche issues, people listened.

Given the time span between the 3 separate articles, it would seem IMHO that P-A and VoA were given the word by the factory to drop the 'S' from their ads at the annual meeting. Too late for the showroom brochures already printed for distribution, but remained available at the dealerships throughout the remainder of MY '73. (As far as I know, there was never a replacement.) The 11/72 Pano article was too late to rescind the 'S' since it would have gone to print by the time of the annual meeting. Chuck Stoddard, just back from that trip, very quietly cleared up the 'S' issue by just not mentioning it. It went away except for a few diehard supporters.

One more point I noticed in all of this. I have a rather substantial collection of showroom literature during that period. All 914 showroom brochures for the US market were printed in the US through 1973. After the 'S' fiasco, the '74, '75 & '76 brochures were printed in Germany. What does this tell you?

BTW, Tom, back in '72 it was Porsche K.G. not A.G.

Cheers,
Don
Tom_T
QUOTE(MDG @ Jun 7 2010, 03:27 PM) *

Tom, I'll go back on what I said about being done with this thread only to reply to your last post and only so you don't continue to misunderstand any of my posts.

I wasn't being hardnosed to anyone. My point about your 'pet theme 914S', frankly, is because you have brought this up more than anyone else ever has. It IS a recurring topic with you, Tom. I never said there was anything wrong with that.

I then said more power to you for putting it all down. Seems like a pat on the back to me, no?

My post you quoted - and edited - as you are well aware, was not even directed at you. I think my full response clearly shows what I was saying, to whom and why. And yes, with all due respect, for me this topic is a time waster. Just my opinion - don't expect you to share it . . .

and one question to go along with T.C.'s about the SC as I really don't remember; was the 911 even called an SC then? I thought that model name came a year or so after the demise of the 914 confused24.gif I know there was a 911S when the ill-fated 914S arose but did Porsche even use the SC name during the 914 run?

Anyway, as a nice parting gift, here's a shot of my '73 2.0's ass biggrin.gif


Click to view attachment


Okay, okay Mike - I give, uncle, uncle! laugh.gif

Nice bootyshake.gif ! .. now you'll have folks contacting you for where you got that badge Mike! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 04:30 PM) *

The 911SC started in 78, but there was a 356 Carrera SC and now there is a New 911 Model SC ( but only available in Europe)

So during the era of the 914, the 911 models consisted of 911, T, E, some leftover L, R, S, Carrera 2.7, Carrera 3.0, Carrera RS, Carrera RSR, Turbo Carrera, & Carrera RS Turbo.


Yeah - I thought the 911 SC was after the 914 era, but that the SC was a carry over from the 356 era - as I'd recently read a Hemmings "Sports & Exotics" article about a guy restoring a 911SC & it referred to the 356 Carrera SC as its predecessor.

I think the issue is really - if the SC had no conflict & had a Porsche historical context from the 50's, then why not steer everyone worldwide to that if it had more marketing cachet, or just bite the bullet on the 914S similarity to the 911S & embrace it as tying the two lines together for better sales? Not fact, just more of my pondering what if's & why not's! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 7 2010, 03:28 PM) *


Tom, you kind of opened up that can-o-worms when you originally named this Thread "Myth or Fact" biggrin.gif

The other thing is when you talk about what Dealership Salesman called the car. I guarantee you when I walk into a Dealership, I know more about the car I'm looking at than any Salesman in the place. Car Salesman are usually the laziest dumbass's on the planet. Heck a friend of mine bought a Dodge van a couple of years ago that the Saleman & accompaning paperwork said was a V-8 when it was a V-6. Boy did they eat that.

OK back to the subject, has anybody seen a 914SC? Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

T.C.


Well - many people think it was just some made up myth, but it was in fact a marketing campaign, but not an actual model per se. Screwy but true! blink.gif

Agree on sales staff & even managers, my point was just that was how they were trained to "up sell" from the 1.7, and that the brochures were around along with print ads for the 6+ months of the campaign's run.

914SC was like the 914S - a marketing term only, no badges .......

... my thought on this 914S & 914SC Badge debate is:
"Badges! .... We don't need no stinking Badges! Ha, ha, ha, ha....!!!!!
lol-2.gif

TC, when I get a chance - I'll try to photo or scan the 914SC articles or parts thereof from that 914 Portfolio book I have with them in it. It was the same deal - talked up as 914SC but cars with typical Euro VW-Porsche-914 + 2.0 badges as at my first post.

QUOTE(sixerdon @ Jun 7 2010, 08:29 PM) *

OK. Now I'll throw my .02 cents in....

BTW, Tom, back in '72 it was Porsche K.G. not A.G.

Cheers,
Don


Thanx for all the info Don - just deleted repeating it here for brevity. I know it was KG then, but everyone here tends to use AG, so I was just going along with that, but probably be technically correct in these.

Clearly between what you just posted, the ads, articles, brochures & personal recollections of everybody - clearly P+A & the Brits & PKG were all over the place with the 2L 914/4 during it's first year in 73 MY!

IMHO, they should've picked something more consistent with their line-up & used either 914S or 914SC - over 914 2.0 (1.7 & 2.0 badges were only first used in 73 MY btw), so as to parallel the 911 line-up better, as well as to have the "sex appeal" of "S" or "SC" denoting the top of a particular model line - just as they did with the later 911 vs. 924, 944, 928 with similar S or SC tags, which seemed to work well for those models with no deleterious effects on the top o the 911 line S or SC. But again, just my postulating for the halibut! biggrin.gif

Brits - where are you? We came to your aid in 1940-41, how abut returning the favor on the 914SC story!!??
popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif
Bleyseng
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 7 2010, 02:38 AM) *

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jun 7 2010, 02:17 AM) *

Porsche didn't "kill" the 914, VW did as they owed the Karmann plant and forced Porsche out as VW wanted the line for the new water cooled Scirroco. Porsche tried and failed to find a suitable affordable place to setup the line to keep production going but failed. The 76 MY cars bodies were made in 1975 and at the Christmas break the line was switched over to Scirroco producion. This is why Porsche came out with the 912E, to fill the gap in their line with a inexpensive car after the 914's were sold out. So you could add the 2100 912E cars to see about how many 76 914's should have sold. The question is how long would Porsche continue selling the 914 at 6-7000 cars a year? What would they have done to upgrade the model line "IF" VW hadn't pulled the assembly plant from under them...
Remember, Porsche fully owned the 914 from mid 74 as they had bought out VW at that time. They had plans for the 914 but when VW announced their plans in 1975 for the Karmann plant Porsches plans went up in smoke. dry.gif

The 924 is another story as VW pulled out of the production of this car at the final moment and the Audi plant were the cars were going to be made came to Porsche with a sweetheart deal to distribute the cars as Porsches.

I


Okay - I got your point after the 4th one posted! biggrin.gif ... twitchy finger I guess!? type.gif

I was aware the Porsche switched to the 924 after VW backed out & that before that they explored various options with the 914, but was not aware that they were booting the 914 from the Karmann plant to make room for Scirocco production.

I think that Porsche probably would've moved to the 924 though, even if they still had the Karmann plant's line available, because they wanted to try out water cooled.

What theneeded was to continue the 73 & 74 sales volume in the 20,000+ range, but the prices had just climbed too high by 75 to sell that many, plus we had a pretty bad recession here then too, depressing sales (as today).

One huge problem for all imported car makers were threatened tariffs, bad monetary exchange rates (for them importing), & the runaway inflation of the 70's, which had 76 914's selling for about what the 911s did when the 914s came out in 69/70! By 76 a 914-2L with the option cost for the AG & PG options was north of $8000 out here in CA, but smog detuned to 86 hp.

While in Fall 75 I could've gotten a new 76 2L on 100% loan vs. 75% used for my 73 2L & have about the same payments, I didn't like the big bumpers nor the lower power engine ~ & today I'd still be required to smog it every other year! blink.gif

About the 924, it was a VW sports car that Porsche had helped design for Audi to build. Everything was set to release the car as a VW when they changed their mind so the Audi plant went to Porsche and set up the deal for them to Market it or they would close the plant, layoff workers etc. Was a watercooled car in their plans? I don't think so especially one with that weak Audi 4 cylinder engine. That the 924 fit into the hole so nicely after VW also helped to kill the 914 helped Porsche to decide to go ahead with the car. Then it sold fairly well and Porsche designed the 944 which really is a Porsche water cooled sports car.
In 74-77 Porsche was just trying to stay alive in those troubled economic times with the value of the dollar dropping like todays Euro killing German cars sales in the States. 911 sales weren't that great either then due to the cost...
Dr. Ernst Fuhrmann planned to cease the 911 during the 1970s, and replace it with the V8-front engined grand sportswagon 928 so what his plans were for the 914 confused24.gif
sixerdon
The "SC" badging for the 356 SC and the 911 SC were not the same meaning.
Throughout the 50's until 1965 the 356's were given model names beginning with 356, 356A, 356B, and finally 356C. The 356C came in three engine versions. The the 1600 "C", "SC" and the 2 liter 4-cam Carrera. (There was no Carrera SC) The "S" stood for Super and was added as the more powerful of the two push rod engines available. Porsche has been using the "S" branding since 1952 when they introduced the 1500 Super.
The 911 SC (1978 MY) stood for Super Carrera. The "S" still stood for Super and followed the '77 911S. But, the rest of world had a 3.0 Carrera model (not the turbo) in '76 & '77. So Porsche labeled the new 911 standard model "SC", Super Carrera.
That's it in a nut shell. 914SC?? Haven't a clue. (It did have a more powerful engine than the US version)
Don

ME733
..............So DOES ANYONE, ...have any idea if ALL the 1973 MY ...914, 2.0 cars were produced with all -included options-.(about 16-17 of them)......
ME733
QUOTE(sixerdon @ Jun 8 2010, 09:52 AM) *

The "SC" badging for the 356 SC and the 911 SC were not the same meaning.
Throughout the 50's until 1965 the 356's were given model names beginning with 356, 356A, 356B, and finally 356C. The 356C came in three engine versions. The the 1600 "C", "SC" and the 2 liter 4-cam Carrera. (There was no Carrera SC) The "S" stood for Super and was added as the more powerful of the two push rod engines available. Porsche has been using the "S" branding since 1952 when they introduced the 1500 Super.
The 911 SC (1978 MY) stood for Super Carrera. The "S" still stood for Super and followed the '77 911S. But, the rest of world had a 3.0 Carrera model (not the turbo) in '76 & '77. So Porsche labeled the new 911 standard model "SC", Super Carrera.
That's it in a nut shell. 914SC?? Haven't a clue. (It did have a more powerful engine than the US version)
Don

............during the ...356.."A..&."B" model production there was a S-90, pushrod engine., which was the highest output pushrod engine....there were a few 356-S-90 GT cars also produced...and badged that way.--just to add a little detail to your post.
Tom_T
QUOTE(sixerdon @ Jun 7 2010, 08:29 PM) *

... and it goes on to list all the "standard equipment" (not optional as has been mentioned above) including the appearance group.


Just to clarify for others on Don's earlier comment above, per the Porsche+Audi brochure page below (originally posted at post #7), refers to: "Some of the other things that are optional on the 914, but come as standard equipment on the 914 S are ....", which also comes through in some other documents and ads.

Click to view attachment

The Appearance & Performance Groups (AG & PG) had been long standing "extra cost options" for the 914 line-up since the 70 MY as extra cost options or upgrades. The were included on only the 73 MY as a no extra cost items (options, upgrades, etc. - you pick), then reverted back to extra cost items in the 74-76 MY 2L models (as well as for the 1.8L).

~ That is, except that the 1000 74 MY LE's included some of the AG & PG options in their "Optional Equipment Package M-778 (Can Am Equipment)" - but provided accent color painted (yellow or orange) Mahle 4-lug cast alloy wheels instead of the Fuchs forged alloy "2 Liter" wheels of the PG; and also deleted the black rollbar/sail vinyl & anodized/polished aluminum trim and deleted the chrome bumpers (in favor of the yellow or orange painted ones) from the AG option list. However - the M-778 was still an extra cost option - not included in a base price.
(see: http://bowlsby.net/914/CanAm/ & click at the "914 LE - Limited Edition" in the left sidebar)

Ergo, even these did not break the "extra cost option" policy from 74-76 MY, not from the earlier 70-72 MY's & with regard to the 73 MY 1.7L models.

So for clarity relative to all 70-76 MYs & models, I have been referring to them here when included on the the "914 S" 914-2.0 73 MY cars as "included options/upgrades" & specifying that this is included in the base price for the 73 MY ones only - just to acknowledge that they were both N/C items within the base price, but which were otherwise normally optional extra cost equipment upgrades on all 914s for the other models & years.
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Jun 8 2010, 07:00 AM) *

..............So DOES ANYONE, ...have any idea if ALL the 1973 MY ...914, 2.0 cars were produced with all -included options-.(about 16-17 of them)......


Murray, that's a hard one to pin down unfortunately, but I'll take a guess at it below.

Also to clarify - there were still other additional options which one could add to the "914S" fully loaded set-up - so they were not all inclusive on options beyond the AG & PG sets of options included in the base price as "standard equipment" on the "914-2.0" or "914/2.0" per the factory info. quoted previously by Don, or per the ads & brochures from Porsche+Audi "914S" as I've posted some examples here previously, which appeared to continue even in the "post-914S era" ads - which leads one to believe that perhaps they only offered lesser equipped 73 MY 2L models as a request item; or as a few later 73 MY "lower price point cars" as the prices got jacked up by Porsche over the late 73 MY, in order to have a sort of "loss leader" to pull buyers in.

Beyond the AG & PG options included under the 73 MY 914 2L / "914 S" program here in the US/Can, there were additional options which could be added at extra cost, such as adding Bilstein shocks, rear window defrost, tinted windshield or tinted glass all around (except rear window - my early-73 "914 S"/914-2.0 had this extra option), factory body undercoating, factory radio install kit, etc., as listed at Jeff Bowlsby's site (see link below). However, these would vary by car & I have no idea how many were ordered with the extra goodies.

Steve Gaglione &/or Jeff Bowlsby may be able to weigh in on whether & when the 73 MY 2L cars were ever offered in the USA/Can without all of those AG+PG options later in the Spring of 73 as perhaps what we'd call today an "option delete" to drop the price a bit as they raised the 914 2L price (1.7 too) at least twice in the Spring of 73, primarily due to the runaway exchange rates between the Deutche Mark (West Ger.) & US Dollar, causing Porsche lose their profit margin over costs as compared to the initial $5099/$5299 price for the "914 S" / 914 2.0.

The Model Numbers & Window Stickers at the two links below seem to suggest that they were available with lesser trim packages, but I read in one or more of the books, articles, etc. out there, that the early model year 73 2Ls were requested by Porsche+Audi to be "loaded" with the extra equipment to overcome a feared negative reaction to a 2.0 4 cyl. 914 at about the same price as the last 71 MY 914-6 generally available in the USA/Can.

Others like Steve & Jeff have said that the 73 MY 2L were available with less equipment fitted, so if anyone has any documentation to support that, then it would be great if you could post pix of the window sticker &/or dealer bill of sale/invoice with the equipment fitment & price info. here for all to see.

It's a real spit-in-the-wind guess at when to look for VINs on window stickers/BOSes to switch to non-loaded 914 2L/"914 S" set-ups, since 12,874 914 2L cars were built in 1972 calendar year (see chart in post #25), but some wouldn't be shipped to the USA/Can until 1973 calendar year & some were sent elsewhere - but the VINs do not track with production sequences exactly - we can only guess that somewhere around VIN ...08000 to ....10000 +/- were actual sold while the "914 S" marketing campaign & ostensibly "loaded" AG+PG 2L's were being imported.

http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/ModelNumbers.htm
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/WindowStickers.htm

VIN 4732901085 shows the $5299 for West Coast POE "914 S" as quoted in the 2 MT & R&T articles & lists all of the AG+PG - http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zWS4732901085.jpg

VIN 4732913069 shows it at $5149 for the 473764 Model supposedly for PG only, but it lists the AG's center console, leather steering wheel & shifter boot, center storage & only $150 less than the Calif. AG+PG $5299 ~ so this could represent a customer request to delete the chrome bumpers/fog lights, rollbar vinyl/brightwork ~ or maybe even an error on the sticker?? - http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zWS4732913069.jpg

The earlier VIN 4732911557 does similarly on the equipment, but is much less base price at $4825 & wasn't sold until 3/19/73 according to the BOS - http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zWS4732911557.jpg

At VIN 4732917992 it had gone to $5649 base price - http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zWS4732917785.jpg

By VIN 4732926371 (Steve's Sahara Beige) - the model # 473664 Calif. 2L with both AG+PG base price had grown to $5800, but this is a late 73 MY months after the "914 S" marketing campaign had been completely withdrawn - http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zWS4732926371.jpg

But then again, VIN 4732927086 at a later VIN & similar 473644 non-CA with both AG+PG 2L model was only $5700 (maybe less as a non-Calif. 914-2L??) & it was apparently not sold until Nov. 197(4)?? - http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zWS4732927086.jpg & BOS http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zBOS4732927086.jpg

{Note - VIN 4732901954 on this list is mine, but the COA is listed under the WS column by mistake, and Jeff is still using the old erroneous COA - but I've sent him the corrected one from PCNA, which properly shows it as a "914 2.0" (not "914 S" by the way), with a GA in front of the engine case no., & the #31 interior code correctly listed as "Beige." Unfortunately I never got the owners manual - let alone the window sticker or BOS - when I bought it used back in 1975. Frankly, most of us were shortsighted & didn't worry about such details back then, & were just happy to get one to drive! w00t.gif driving.gif ~ Live & learn! shades.gif }

Given the above, we've introduced yet another version of "model numbers" which related to designating which engine, which trim levels & where to be sold for the benefit of the factory, distributors & dealerships in identifying the various models & pricing. As with the "914S" & "914SC", these were never badged on the cars themselves, but rather appeared in the window stickers (Munroney Stickers), dealer invoices & Bills of Sales, dealer/distributor pricing & order documents & catalogs, etc., - more as a form of "Inventory Control" if you will.


EXTRA INFO LINKS

For those not familiar with the 74 LE/CanAm version of the 914 2.0, look here:
http://bowlsby.net/914/CanAm/

For those wanting more info. on all 914 options offered, read these two:
http://www.p914.com/
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/OpEq.htm

... and then go on to read the rest of the excellent 914 info linked from the main webpage of the latter above, here:
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/

popcorn[1].gif


sixerdon
QUOTE(ME733 @ Jun 8 2010, 06:11 AM) *

QUOTE(sixerdon @ Jun 8 2010, 09:52 AM) *

The "SC" badging for the 356 SC and the 911 SC were not the same meaning.
Throughout the 50's until 1965 the 356's were given model names beginning with 356, 356A, 356B, and finally 356C. The 356C came in three engine versions. The the 1600 "C", "SC" and the 2 liter 4-cam Carrera. (There was no Carrera SC) The "S" stood for Super and was added as the more powerful of the two push rod engines available. Porsche has been using the "S" branding since 1952 when they introduced the 1500 Super.
The 911 SC (1978 MY) stood for Super Carrera. The "S" still stood for Super and followed the '77 911S. But, the rest of world had a 3.0 Carrera model (not the turbo) in '76 & '77. So Porsche labeled the new 911 standard model "SC", Super Carrera.
That's it in a nut shell. 914SC?? Haven't a clue. (It did have a more powerful engine than the US version)
Don

............during the ...356.."A..&."B" model production there was a S-90, pushrod engine., which was the highest output pushrod engine....there were a few 356-S-90 GT cars also produced...and badged that way.--just to add a little detail to your post.


Sir, you are incorrect on several points. The S-90 was introduced as a 356B model from 1960-63 MY. It was not the "highest output pushrod engine". The 356 SC was from '64-'65 MY. The 356B S-90 GT's were custom ordered (extremely rare) and featured a very light weight body. I don't want to go into details on 356's here. This is not a 356 forum. I suggest you visit the 356 Registry web site and learn all you want about 356's.
Cheers,
Don
Tom_T
QUOTE(sixerdon @ Jun 8 2010, 06:52 AM) *

The "SC" badging for the 356 SC and the 911 SC were not the same meaning.
Throughout the 50's until 1965 the 356's were given model names beginning with 356, 356A, 356B, and finally 356C. The 356C came in three engine versions. The the 1600 "C", "SC" and the 2 liter 4-cam Carrera. (There was no Carrera SC) The "S" stood for Super and was added as the more powerful of the two push rod engines available. Porsche has been using the "S" branding since 1952 when they introduced the 1500 Super.
The 911 SC (1978 MY) stood for Super Carrera. The "S" still stood for Super and followed the '77 911S. But, the rest of world had a 3.0 Carrera model (not the turbo) in '76 & '77. So Porsche labeled the new 911 standard model "SC", Super Carrera.
That's it in a nut shell. 914SC?? Haven't a clue. (It did have a more powerful engine than the US version)
Don


Don, in the prior posts I'd mentioned that the "S" for "Super" - as used in the "The Super Porsche" ad for the "914 S" (red car & in B&W version for readable detail in my initial set of posts here), was indeed based upon & more consistent with historical Porsche naming - including the 356 S & 911S.

This book is still in print & readily available, so I'm not going to tempt fate & post pix of pages from it here, but I've given page references & titles below FYI of all, as well as the ISBN - so you can Google for the best price & get one yourself, which BTW includes the Jan 73 MT & Feb 73 R&T articles discussed & excerpts from same posted previously here, long with others.
Click to view attachment

Neither the Jan. 20 1973 "VW-Porsche 914SC Road Test" article from "MOTOR" (pg. 150), nor the later April 1975 "914 SC the Very Practical Sports Car Road Test" article from "Modern Motor" (pg. 185) in my "PORSCHE 914 - Ultimate Portfolio" book (compiled by R.M. Clark, publ. by Brooklands Books ISBN 1-85520-4320) gives any enlightenment on what the "914SC" stood for.

However, the former article says that - due to the increased cost, UK import tariffs & less perceived value for the 1.7L model at this point (late 72/early 73), that from the 73 MY on when the 2L (100 hp Euro spec ~ 5 more hp than the 95 hp US spec using the same DIN method, 91 hp was the SAE method on the USA 2L)) was available, the Brit's importer AFN Ltd. only brought in the 2.0 914SC (presumably through the end of the run in the 76 MY), except that a customer could special order a 1.7L model (presumably 1.8L 74-76). The second article was an Aussie publication testing perhaps the sole Crayford RHD conversion in Australia (aside from later "relocations" by buyers there).

.

How about "SC" for "Small Car" - like this one?? laugh.gif
Click to view attachment

.

.

.

Also of interest in that book compiling 914 articles was - as late as March 1973 "Sports Car World" ran an article here in the USA on "Truly a Fun Car - 914 S Road Test" (pg. 158) - at the same time as "Car & Driver" ran their March 1973 "Porsche 914 2.0 Road Test" (pg. 167)! blink.gif

So the former article apparently slipped by the "Porsche KG Name Police" as late as around Dec. 72 or so - or they chose to flat out ignore them, while C&D did not!!??
Sich Heil der Porsche!!!!
Click to view attachment
... sorry, I couldn't resist adding some more humor, with that mustache this guy chose!


lol-2.gif av-943.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jun 8 2010, 03:22 AM) *

About the 924, it was a VW sports car that Porsche had helped design for Audi to build. Everything was set to release the car as a VW when they changed their mind so the Audi plant went to Porsche and set up the deal for them to Market it or they would close the plant, layoff workers etc. Was a watercooled car in their plans? I don't think so especially one with that weak Audi 4 cylinder engine. That the 924 fit into the hole so nicely after VW also helped to kill the 914 helped Porsche to decide to go ahead with the car. Then it sold fairly well and Porsche designed the 944 which really is a Porsche water cooled sports car.
In 74-77 Porsche was just trying to stay alive in those troubled economic times with the value of the dollar dropping like todays Euro killing German cars sales in the States. 911 sales weren't that great either then due to the cost...
Dr. Ernst Fuhrmann planned to cease the 911 during the 1970s, and replace it with the V8-front engined grand sportswagon 928 so what his plans were for the 914 confused24.gif

agree.gif ..... except ......
IIRC - Porsce's Engineering branch was already exploring other water cooled engines at the time they designed the 924 for VW, so they had at least started lookng at them by then. I recall one of my bosses in early 1975 complaining about the design studies of a postulated water cooled 911 version to come, because he felt it ruined the look & lines of the 911 - he being a 60's 911 owner & short body lover.

IMHO, the 944 & 968 are not much more than an updated 924 or more refined/developed version of it, & the 928 was a German 'Vette with a back seat & the current WC Porsches are the real "NARP's"!!!! dry.gif .... but then I'm an aircooled kinda guy, like you are! biggrin.gif

BTW all others out there, the 74 MY 914 sales were their second best overall at over 20,000 (behind 27,000+ in 73 MY the subject here), but were flagging to the problematic monetary exchange rate whih Don, I & others have indicated here, & Don's comparison to the 2008-09 run up of the Euro vs. US Dollar affecting Porsche sales is a great current events parallel to what was going on in the 1970's, and the Boxster/Cayman sales now are about what the 914s' were back then - despite worldwide population growth!
Makes one think! idea.gif

Interesting stuff, but mostly a sideline to the "914S" & "914SC" story.
shades.gif
SirAndy
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe


shades.gif Andy
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 08:21 PM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe


shades.gif Andy


Well now, that doesn't quite work right for a roadster, so they must've had something else in mind when the Brits coined it for the 914-2.0 to the UK!!?? shades.gif

SC was also used for "Super Carrera" on the 356's IIRC somewhere along the line.

Maybe the Brits just wanted to clarify that it was indeed a "Sports Car"!!?? biggrin.gif

Hey Andy - Big Thanx for getting all the move & bugs worked out on the world website & server!! beerchug.gif
SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 14 2010, 10:27 PM) *

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 08:21 PM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe


shades.gif Andy


Well now, that doesn't quite work right for a roadster

The 911 SC is a roadster?

confused24.gif Andy
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 14 2010, 10:27 PM) *

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 08:21 PM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe


shades.gif Andy


Well now, that doesn't quite work right for a roadster

The 911 SC is a roadster?

confused24.gif Andy


Andy - a Roadster is an open top car & usually only a 2 seater but sometimes with a small rear jump or kiddy or package seat - so a 914 or 911 Targa is usually grouped as a roadster, even if it's not a soft top convertable type but has a removable hardtop or hard-drop-top design.

Technically the 911/912/930 hardtop is a Coupe because of the hardtop & 2 door design (vs. 4 dr.) & no B-pillar between the front & rear side windows.

In today's Porsche models' terms - the Boxster is a Roadster, while a Cayman is a Sports Coupe, & convertable/Targa 911's are Roadsters & hardtops (permanent ones) are Sports Coupes.

My 85 325e 2dr. gets called a Coupe, but since it has a b-pillar, it is technically classed as a 2 dr sedan, whereas the old 60's-70's BMW 2.8/3.0 CS/CSi with no b-pillar were true Coupes. Additionally, some of the current b-pillar-less 4 dr. are called coupes by MBZ.

Anyway, that was the old school auto definitions when I was looking at going to Art Center or Carnegie-Mellon for automotive design/engineering in 1969-70.

Therefore you're Sports Coupe for 911SC sounds correct - it being a sports coupe.
ME733
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 15 2010, 04:52 AM) *

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 14 2010, 10:27 PM) *

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 08:21 PM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe


shades.gif Andy


Well now, that doesn't quite work right for a roadster

The 911 SC is a roadster?

confused24.gif Andy


Andy - a Roadster is an open top car & usually only a 2 seater but sometimes with a small rear jump or kiddy or package seat - so a 914 or 911 Targa is usually grouped as a roadster, even if it's not a soft top convertable type but has a removable hardtop or hard-drop-top design.

Technically the 911/912/930 hardtop is a Coupe because of the hardtop & 2 door design (vs. 4 dr.) & no B-pillar between the front & rear side windows.

In today's Porsche models' terms - the Boxster is a Roadster, while a Cayman is a Sports Coupe, & convertable/Targa 911's are Roadsters & hardtops (permanent ones) are Sports Coupes.

My 85 325e 2dr. gets called a Coupe, but since it has a b-pillar, it is technically classed as a 2 dr sedan, whereas the old 60's-70's BMW 2.8/3.0 CS/CSi with no b-pillar were true Coupes. Additionally, some of the current b-pillar-less 4 dr. are called coupes by MBZ.

Anyway, that was the old school auto definitions when I was looking at going to Art Center or Carnegie-Mellon for automotive design/engineering in 1969-70.

Therefore you're Sports Coupe for 911SC sounds correct - it being a sports coupe.

.......................what a hell of a great explanation of car classification facts...
carr914
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 11:21 PM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe


shades.gif Andy


This starts the debate the 911 guys have had for a long time.

You know that Porsche made a 911SC Cabriolet, right? Kinda tough to have a Super Coupe Convertable.
SirAndy
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 15 2010, 06:24 AM) *
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 11:21 PM) *
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe

This starts the debate the 911 guys have had for a long time.


On German cars, from the '60s to the '90s and even today:

The letter "S" has traditionally always stood for "Sport".
The letter "C" has stood for "Coupe".
The letter "I" has stood for "Injektion".


But what do i know, i just grew up there ...
confused24.gif Andy
Tom_T
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 15 2010, 06:24 AM) *

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 11:21 PM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe


shades.gif Andy


This starts the debate the 911 guys have had for a long time.

You know that Porsche made a 911SC Cabriolet, right? Kinda tough to have a Super Coupe Convertable.


Yup TC - That illustrates the same loose application in marketing the cars - any make & any country/region - as for my BMW 325e "Coupe" ~ what is more convenient or has more sizzle is often applied.

How is it relevant to the "914 S" - well it's essentially the same approach - Porsche+Audi picked a marketing "tag" that they felt would get them the most mileage in promoting the new 2.0L 4 cyl. model.
URY914
Andy

What did "T" stand for? Touring or Titties?
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 10:00 AM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 15 2010, 06:24 AM) *
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 11:21 PM) *
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe

This starts the debate the 911 guys have had for a long time.


On German cars, from the '60s to the '90s and even today:

The letter "S" has traditionally always stood for "Sport".
The letter "C" has stood for "Coupe".
The letter "I" has stood for "Injektion".


But what do i know, i just grew up there ...
confused24.gif Andy


I don't disagree Andy, but the application was far from consistent between makes, countries, regions - let alone worldwide. A case in point for a German make of the era - well technically Austrian - is the BMW 3.0 CS & 3.0 CSi ~ yes the "i" is for the injected model (vs. carbureted), but did they intend "CS" as "Coupe Sport" or something else for the "S" - since it was clearly a Coupe.

In any case relevant to the subject matter here - what "SC" means in Germany, USA or Canada for any particular make & model, nor for prior/later Porsche models, nor our own personal theories on it, is really not the point relative to this topic on "914 S" & "914 SC" marketing programs. So myself, Any, TC, etc. are offering our guesses& other info., but not really answering the real question here. shades.gif

What we're interested in knowing more about, is what the British/UK distributor of the 914's specifically meant in coining "914 SC" - so we're still missing that bit of info. from our Brit Teeaners or another member here who really knows. I was unable to find what they meant by that reference in the articles reprinted in the "Porsche 914 Portfolio" book noted above.

So does anyone out there have further info. on the UK's "914SC" marketing program?? confused24.gif
popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif

Tom_T
QUOTE(URY914 @ Jun 15 2010, 10:59 AM) *

Andy

What did "T" stand for? Touring or Titties?


If you were touring, you hoped to find titties back in the 60's & 70's! biggrin.gif

GT stood for Grand Touring or Grant Tourisimo, as well as being a specific production car race class at Le Mans etc., which generally required a minimum of 500 examples to be built in order to qualify to race there as a "Homologated" production model (vs. a limited production or a purpose built race only car).

BTW - even counting the 914-6/GT kits distributed by the dealers/distributors - the 914-6/GT fell short of homologation by some 10 or 20 +/-units!
SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 15 2010, 11:09 AM) *

A case in point for a German make of the era - well technically Austrian - is the BMW 3.0 CS & 3.0 CSi ~ yes the "i" is for the injected model (vs. carbureted), but did they intend "CS" as "Coupe Sport" or something else for the "S" - since it was clearly a Coupe.

BMW was Austrian? Huh? confused24.gif
You do know what BMW stands for, right?

As for the 3.0 CSI, it's a perfect example of what i said above ...

The CS was the carbed 'Sport Coupe' while the CSI was the injected 'Sport Coupe'. Or 'Coupe Sport' in this case.

shades.gif Andy
SirAndy
QUOTE(URY914 @ Jun 15 2010, 10:59 AM) *
What did "T" stand for? Touring or Titties?


"T" stands for "Tourenwagen" or "Touring" for you English speakers ...

shades.gif Andy
Bleyseng
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 12:30 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 15 2010, 11:09 AM) *

A case in point for a German make of the era - well technically Austrian - is the BMW 3.0 CS & 3.0 CSi ~ yes the "i" is for the injected model (vs. carbureted), but did they intend "CS" as "Coupe Sport" or something else for the "S" - since it was clearly a Coupe.

BMW was Austrian? Huh? confused24.gif
You do know what BMW stands for, right?

As for the 3.0 CSI, it's a perfect example of what i said above ...

The CS was the carbed 'Sport Coupe' while the CSI was the injected 'Sport Coupe'. Or 'Coupe Sport' in this case.

shades.gif Andy


Bavaria is in Austria, right..... biggrin.gif
and the Black Forest is in France chair.gif
MDG
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jun 15 2010, 03:52 PM) *

Bavaria is in Austria, right..... biggrin.gif
and the Black Forest is in France chair.gif


mmmmmm . . . Black Forest Cake . . . Bavarian Cream Pie chowtime.gif
carr914
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 01:00 PM) *

QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 15 2010, 06:24 AM) *
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 14 2010, 11:21 PM) *
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jun 7 2010, 02:48 PM) *

Also what do you think SC stands for?, because even the 911 guys can't come to an agreement on that.

SC = Sport Coupe

This starts the debate the 911 guys have had for a long time.


On German cars, from the '60s to the '90s and even today:

The letter "S" has traditionally always stood for "Sport".
The letter "C" has stood for "Coupe".
The letter "I" has stood for "Injektion".


But what do i know, i just grew up there ...
confused24.gif Andy


Not trying to argue as I don't have a Dog in this fight ( insert Michael Vick joke), but I have seen/heard refer to it as Sport Coupe, Super Coupe, Super Carrera, etc. all in the 911 Circles, therefore the debate. I will be with some Porsche Officials tomorrow - I bet I get a different answer.

T.C.
URY914
Ask Steve G., he knows everything.
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 12:30 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 15 2010, 11:09 AM) *

A case in point for a German make of the era - well technically Austrian - is the BMW 3.0 CS & 3.0 CSi ~ yes the "i" is for the injected model (vs. carbureted), but did they intend "CS" as "Coupe Sport" or something else for the "S" - since it was clearly a Coupe.

BMW was Austrian? Huh? confused24.gif
You do know what BMW stands for, right?

As for the 3.0 CSI, it's a perfect example of what i said above ...

The CS was the carbed 'Sport Coupe' while the CSI was the injected 'Sport Coupe'. Or 'Coupe Sport' in this case.

shades.gif Andy


Brain Fart! blink.gif - how about Bavaria!
.... unless they really meant to badge it AMW! laugh.gif

Coupe Sport ... is that different than Sport Coupe from Porsche? biggrin.gif
... or did they mean Coupe Super? ... or Super Coupe bass-ackwards?? confused24.gif

I believe I stated the CS & CSi correctly above! dry.gif

Nuff said - cuz this self-flagellation is not answering what the Brits' meant 914SC to mean! confused24.gif confused24.gif
SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 15 2010, 04:12 PM) *
or did they mean Coupe Super? ... or Super Coupe bass-ackwards?? confused24.gif

I don't recall anyone ever using the word "Super" with regards to a "S" badge on any German automobile.

I have no idea where that terminology came from.

But i only spent 35 years in Germany, it's possible i missed a thing or two ...
shades.gif Andy
MDG
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 07:22 PM) *

I don't recall anyone ever using the word "Super" with regards to a "S" badge on any German


There's a woman from Hamburg who lives down the road. It's generally acknowledged she is a Super Cougar.

We call her SC.

Just sayin'
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 15 2010, 04:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jun 15 2010, 04:12 PM) *
or did they mean Coupe Super? ... or Super Coupe bass-ackwards?? confused24.gif

I don't recall anyone ever using the word "Super" with regards to a "S" badge on any German automobile.

I have no idea where that terminology came from.

But i only spent 35 years in Germany, it's possible i missed a thing or two ...
shades.gif Andy


Ummm....maybe how about S for Super in the 356 line-up, since both badging was used, and the 911S was also referred to as "Super" on that 356 carry-forward in some Porsche literature. shades.gif
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