I could not believe what I read on the news (reported on Reuters), Bill Ford Jr. of Ford Motor Co. wants a $.50 gallon gas tax to encourage people to buy more efficent cars, he also wants a tax incentive to assist people buying his complex Hybrid vehicles! You all might want to write Ford about this joker, as his tax will effect all drivers, even those that get near 30 mpg in there 30 year old 914s, which is better milage than most Ford products sold today. Just venting today on a statement from a true idiot. What a self serving proposal, that would cost many of us hundereds of dollars per year.

dave

So what he is saying is he would like to make more efficient cars be he can't because do that unilaterally because he'd be clobbered by competition.

Why doesn't the jerk ask the Feds to raise CAFE standards? That way all of the manufacturers will be forced to produce more efficient cars on a 'level' playing field.

Instead, he'd rather first lose many on a lot full of guzzlers that he can't sell because people can't afford the gas, THEN he would alter production!

The new Lotus Elise gets around 35 mpg!

The CAFE standards are and have been gotten around for years. They've pretty much proven themselves ineffective.

My opinions on gas prices are likely to be unpopular, but here they are, anyway.

First, if you think gas prices are high here, take the wife on a trip to Europe and rent a car while you're there. Drive a few hundred miles. Your opinion will change. If you really want to see something, take a trip to Norway. A lovely, clean, OPEC country (yes, Norway is a member of OPEC), with basically empty roads in excellent condition, which has the highest gas prices of anywhere in the world. Last time I was there, about 5 years ago, gas was roughly $5US per US gallon. $50US to fill the tank on a 1 liter Nissan Micra. However, I drove that awful car (handled terribly) from one side of the country to the other, several hundred kilometers, and only filled the tank twice.

Raw gas doesn't cost any more in Europe (esp. in Norway) than it does anywhere else. The difference is taxes. As a result, the vast majority of cars on the roads in Europe have engines under 2 liters, and most have engines smaller than 1.5 liters. Mass transit is much more commonly used in Europe. This is how the market forces work.

If the US taxed gasoline more, the roads would have fewer applicances on it driven by people on it that didn't want to be there. They'd take the train, or the bus, or move closer to work. Granted, higher gas taxes would be very regressive, forcing poorer folks to pay dispropotionately more until they can rearrange their lives accordingly. I don't have a good answer for that. Perhaps a tax credit for lower-income people (paid for with all of the extra tax revenue). With more tax revenue, the emptier roads could also be better maintained (and would require less maintinance, anyway). Sounds like a win for those of us who use cars for entertainment as much as transportation.

So, I don't consider Bill Ford's approach to be "stupid". It's a sensible market-driven approach to solving a problem. I'd certainly question how much more the problem really needs to be solved (current ULEV cars are so clean you can barely measure the emissions, and these aren't even hybrids). As (if) hybrid technology improves, it will get cheaper, so the subsidy that Toyota appears to pay to keep the Prius reasonably priced should vanish. Ford has a PZEV Focus out that's not a hybrid, and is cleaner than a pure electric (measured against power plant emissions). From all reports, it's even fun to drive.

On Friday, I am going to spend the weekend in Phoenix.
While there, I have arranged to meet with three Phoenecians, who are selling their late-model VW Jetta TDIs. I intend to drive home in a car that gets nearly 50 miles per gallon, and I intend to not stop to refuel along the way.

After I buy a diesel, I don't care how much they raise the Gas Tax.

Raising gas costs *do* put a kink in the economy. Our Bush Tax Breaks are going into the offshore tax shelters of the fine upstanding American Patriots like Ken Lay. Personally, I'd rather see the TAX component of gasoline go up than the OIL component. High gas prices are inevitable in the near future. I don't think we'll ever see $1.00 again. This morning, it was $2.39. Schmoes like me who are driving this weekend are going to take it in the shorts.

If the OIL component of gasoline increases, that only benefits a few wealthy oil execs and energy traders/middlemen. Perhaps, also, R&D guys who invent more efficient cars. But when the OIL component goes up outside our control, we could get screwed royally in so many ways - what if OIL became so expensive, we could no longer afford to defend our country? Our *RELIANCE* on oil is killing us.

If the TAX component of gasoline increases, it can be increased and decreased in a controlled measure, to take the shock off of the economy. A sustained hurt is better than a brief high spike, because people can make adjustments over time (like trading in the H2 for a Civic - if they want). Additionally, those tax revenues would fund road construction, or even R&D for alternative energy sources. And both of those get us closer, as a nation, to being less dependent on oil. Especially foreign oil. Especially terrorist-funding, war causing middle-eastern oil.

All that said - if this Ford guy wants higher gas taxes, why doesn't he just move to the UK or Canada? Why does he hate Freedom? Why does he hate America? If he wants change, he should just open his wallet and buy a congressman like everyone else.

Thank you for letting me vent once again.
Someday I'll buy a 914, and I'll post relevant stuff to the 914 club bbs.

Its good PR for the new Ford. When was the last time the auto makers had any say in the gas prices? Well nothing thats come out publicly that I've heard of. Basically its an empty threat that makes him out to be an environmentalist...

And, I have to give him props for bringing back the old Mustang and the GT40. Those cars are too sexy.

Doesn't sound like a sensible market driven approach. taxes aren't market driven. Taxes will harm the public as pointed out, mainly the less well to do, who would need adjust their life styles. educating the public to buy more efficient cars might work. But to subsidize ford products with my tax money is wrong, that would be stealing from the poor (me) to subsidize the very rich company (Ford) Ford will get a shotgun up its butt when they try to take my money like that.

As far as public transit, it is run by politicains right now (ie many crooks in this group) that build transit systems that help developers of thoose system, which then line the re-election pockects of the politicians. We have expensive light rails, that cost ten times what a bus would cost, and no one rides them, because they cannot afford to run trains frequently enough, or to enough places, cause all the money was shot on the expensive rail system. A simple system of cheap busses on roads (even bus only roads) is much wiser, as more riders will choose it, because it will be more cost effective, hence busses will run more frequently Politicians do not want an efficient system, as there is no political kickback in a fully efficeint system. The other key here is the riders will choose to take the bus, not forced into it by high taxes on the gas. Be forced into something is not freedom, and we have freedom here (or at least are supposed too, until the taxing politicains take over) With public transit we would be stuck when ever a transit union decides to strike, so we would be at their mercy. My city wants to subsidize a ferry system, go thru the math that they qoute in their expensive info flyers they mail out, and it comes to a $5000 per year subsidy per rider (assuming two way trip, five days a week) good god that is expensive. Hell, that is more than what my 914 cost!
I am all for private busses, or even public ones where the fair box pays the cost. Until we get the politicains greedy hands out of the transit system, we will continue to have inconvinent systems that no one rides. Throwing more tax money at it will not help, they will just blow it on contracts to their political friends. Projects that cost $100 of million to run trains to airports yeah right, i am going to put all my luggage on a bus, transfer to a train, and hope I make it on time for my flight. This project was a total waste of my tax money. That amount if they spent wisely could have run busses or other less expensive system to places where many people will actually ride them, maybe even allowing the fares box to pay for the system (as it was 50 years ago when many system were private, they actually made a profit off the fares. Thosse systems went under for many reasons, including the "competitin" of tax subsidized system, once the private systems went belly up, the public systems had no competition, and got worse and worse, as politicians funneled more tax monty into stupid projects that gave little true value to the rider.

yes I would ride a bus, if they had direct lines, frequent times. I will not ride a light rail, that costs many times more, with few trains, subject to delays when even one train ahead breaksdown, and takes longer to travel than in the car even in the worst traffic. For me to go to work on public transit would more than double my 30 minute commute each way, thats over an hour wasted each day, times 200 work days per year is 200 lost hours sitting in a train or bus, thats more hours than i recieve for vacation pay in a year. no thank you.

keep the tax off the gas, let the market decide the price, and keep my tax money away from the public transit waste of useless projects that only a politician recieving kickbacks would love. keep Public transist simple, frequent, time saving and allow private sector run it by removing as many restrictions and requirements that hurt the chances of private transit.

If I had $600 less per year (what a 50 cent a gallon tax would cost me) i would probably have to drop the 914 hobby, what would many of the 914 based vendors, and manufactures do then without my business? the tax would hurt not only poor me, destroy a years worth of vaction time, and drive vendors of my 914 hobby out of business, maybe we ought to tax thoose that are left to pay for the unemployment that would result?????

We need a free society, not one controlled by taxing politicians that claim to know best for me, yet act in there own self interests. This idiot Ford guy is just as bad, He is acting in Fords self interest at the expense of everyone else. If you want to take your own money and give it to the transit authorities, I will not object, its your money, but keep your hands out of my wallet.

at any rate i will never buy a ford with stupid exectutives that want to tax me working at ford. He is stupid, because he wants to hurt me, a former potential customer, and that is really stupid.


dave

with Lupawali except raise the tax to a dollar.

Spend that tax money on real mass transit like literail that goes everywhere and unlike buses doesn't share the roads with cars. The trains zip along instead of buses which are stuck in traffic. Yep, they have some small cars in Europe and small engines. Probably the most powerful car I rode in was Jeroen's 911!
We have a auto lifestyle where all the small local stores are gone displaced by mega Walmart with huge parking lots. If people couldn't afford to drive the miles to go to these mega stores they would walk to a local business. Walmart would die or disappear.
Spend some of the tax money on rebuilding the roads we have, in the Seattle area they are terrible!
I still rail when I see a Yukon in traffic with a Blonde driving while on the cell phone while doing her makeup. Land tanks that are a joke.

Geoff

I completely fail to see where, in my argument, I said the additional gas tax money should go to Ford. Bill Ford said: "higher gas prices mean people will buy more efficient cars". I completely agree with that point. Raise the price of gas (by taxing it more), and people WILL buy more efficient cars. Ford will sell fewer Expeditions (which they make a lot of money on, each), and more Focuses (which they make less money on, each. Tell me again how this directly benefits Ford?).

It's market-driven because you aren't *forcing* people to buy more efficient cars, nor are you *forcing* manufacturers to make more efficient cars. You're encouraging them to do so with price changes (altering the market). Granted, it's an artificial change, but gas taxes in the US are among the lowest in the world, and may very well be the lowest in the industrialized world. One could make the argument that they're artificially low, mostly because of those same corrupt politians you mention (which industry would be hurt by lower fuel sales, and which industry does the current administration have close ties to?). It would be a severe change, and require a long time for adjustment, but it would eventually happen. Assuming such a tax change would take place, which it won't unless the political climate changes dramatically.

Say what you will about mass transit. Most people I know that knock it have never tried it. I take the train 3-4 days a week to work not because I'm some tree-hugging environmentalist, but because the alternative is sitting in rush hour traffic on 101, which any other Bay Area club member could tell you is pretty awful. Everyone who complains about how expensive light rail is has no idea of the expense involved in building and maintaining a freeway. Infrastructure is always expensive.

I have a friend who hates lite rail as he thinks its a waste of money as no one uses it. Ok I said look it up, what is the percentage of use in say Holland vs the US for mass transit. Hmm, Holland is about 16% vs less than 1% in the US. IF we could even get up to 10% that would be a major change in this society.
I love building big freeways, lots of carpenters, iron workers and laborers put to work, with lots of money wasted going in to the workers pockets! haha Plus they cost these days billions of dollars.


Geoff