I might be interesting in taking out the engine of my car and swapping with something better sometime down the road in the future. Currently it's an old VW bus motor, no horsepower, some ok torque in 1st and 2nd, but nothing after that.

I did some searching, and came across a few threads - but are there any good previous threads or articles out there that touch on each engine option available to upgrade to in the 914? Cost, benefits, pros/cons, etc. I know there was a poll once asking which upgrade to do - but could not find it.

Thanks!

Check out Renegade Hybrids and Kenedy Engineered Products. You can put just about any engine you can think of in a 914. Mine is a small block chevy. Of course you can put in a big Raby type 4 engine too or a radical 3.6 911 engine. All depends on your budget.

My engine is fuel injected and super reliable. I have driven it from Los Angeles to San Francisco to Tahoe to Napa to Monterey to... Anywhere. It does not overheat and gets 20mpg on the freeway. I even commute in it sometimes.

Like in racing, speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

The easiest upgrade and maybe cheapest upgrade is to the 2.0L Type IV engine from the 73-74 vintage 914's. Best if you can find one with original fuel injection.

Bigger T4's can be found/built for more money. T4's drop right in with little mods to the chassis/electrical system.

Cost is what I'm trying to figure out - what are the typical costs for each engine upgrade option? Finding the best power to cost ratio is ideal - the sweet spot so to speak.

1973-74 2.0L FI engines used are around for $1000-1500 complete for 95hp.

A hot 2056cc with a Raby cam is a sweet engine with FI and its 115hp easy plus its way more fun...cost is up to you....

First;
For budget double what you intend to spend, then add 10% and you'll have a close estimate of what it'll end up costing at the end of the day. Thats reality.

The first decision you have to make is if you are building this car for you only, or if you'll be selling it some day. If its being sold you'll have to think about what a buyer with a REAL wallet might be looking for, not just what you are looking for. This is the reason why cars can be bought for generally less money than they can be built for. People never consider next week, next year or etc.

The next decision is whether you are willing to bastardize the car at the compromise of cheaper performance. If you are willing to do that, go ahead and consider a SBC or Suby. Don't consider the TIV at all, just pull the original engine and sell it as a core for someone to transplant into a VW, as they'll appreciate what you discard and it'll be put to good use.

If you want to keep the aircooled character, something that differentiates the 914 more than any other vehicle you can be prepared to spend the required amount of money to do this correctly. Doing this will keep the car unaltered from its original state and after 20 more years the car will be a more respected offering to those who appreciate Porsches for aircooled character. As other cars are chopped up, sacrificed and bastardized the OE cars will become more of a dying breed..

I have no idea what it cost to bastardize a 914, either doing it sloppily or correctly, but I do know what it costs to add power to the original engine that doesn't compromise the car.. See below:
Basic rebuild using piece meal parts-3K

Performance engine of 120-140HP=-5-6K

Performance engine of 125HP using stock FI (based on one of my kits built by you)-
5K for the complete kit, 1500.00 in ancillaries

Performance engine of 150-165HP using carbs (based on one of my kits built by you)-
6K for the kit, 2500.00 in ancillaries

RAT Turn Key engine making 125HP using stock FI- 8-9K dyno tuned

RAT Turn Key engine making 140-185HP using carbs- 10-12K dyno tuned

RAT Turn Key 200HP+= 12-15K and beyond for exotics.

These are just some offerings and most of those that share our level of engine completion and components share the same pricing for complete engines. Other shops that focus on nothing except volume and sales will sell you a turn key engine for 1/2 the cost of the prices I posted and you will get exactly what you have paid for.

You can go most other routes for less money, but how much YOU value the car makes the biggest impact on how much you consider VALUE over the long term. Price and value are far from the same thing, most don't realize that until hindsight becomes 20/20.

When I decided that I wanted a watercooled 914, I just bought a Boxster.

Thanks Jake, that may be the best summary of RAT possibilities I've seen!
So when budgeting for one of these, does that "double + 10%" guideline still apply? (Not asked in jest.)



Generally speaking, with originality and future value in mind when planning a performance Type IV rebuild, is an owner better off rebuilding the numbers-matched original engine (if healthy) or sourcing a different core and storing the original engine?

A flat six conversion done right (some believe conversions are never right ) is expensive.

I'm building one now and figured it would cost me around 10K. I was wrong. It'll cost close to that just for the engine. Add oil tank, exhaust, oil lines and cooler, brake and suspension upgrades, tires, flares, throttle and trans cable/linkage, axles and CV's just to name some off the top of my head. It adds up real quick.

A big four is by far the best bang for the buck.

All of us have opinions. Don't let others sway yours with words like "sacrificed, compromised and bastardized." How many older 911s are getting converted to the 3.6? How many Chevelles and Novas are driving around with the original straight 6's or 305's? I don't see guys telling those folks they should have stuck with the original 6 and three on the tree.

Do what you want to do. It's your car not theirs. I felt the 914 should have never come from the factory with the four. If you were born with a wart on your nose wouldn't you cut it off? There, that's my opinion. You'll get 100 others.

Here's my thinking on the car. My DD is a Mazda 3.

I would love the Nissan 370z as a 2nd car. Great car for 30k. Plus maintenance, tires, and insurance. So I can spend ~40k on a sports car.

Or...I can spend, 5k, 10k, 15k on the 914 and have something special - and a sports car for considerably less - with low insurance costs. I don't really have a set budget - I'm more in mind of what is worth it. I don't care about selling price.

I don't want 90 hp. I don't need a 3.6L. Do I want to spend 15k? Preferably not. But if you could tell me I can get 150-200 hp with 10k in cash...that would be thought provoking. Staying aircooled would be nice, but not required.

I found a couple 3.2 aircooled engines going for 5k-7k on ebay. Is that normal price? What would the final tally roughly come out for those?

A million different options out there, but remember the one thing about the RAT motors, they are NEW motors/parts.

If you buy a 3.2 or 3.6, you'll have to do a rebuild to get them to the same level of 'newness' that's $$$ along with the other bits to do a conversion.

A ~$10k big hp large 4 is the best bang for the buck, even if it doesn't seem like it when writing the big check

Thanks for the info Jake. Checked out your website, interesting stuff.

So basically for your "RAT Turn Key engine making 140-185HP using carbs- 10-12K dyno tuned", the customer provides the 2.0 914 engine, and you turn it into that? I might of missed it, is there a page on your website that explains what you do to the engine?

Like I stated, if you will NEVER sell the car and know that you'll NEVER be in a position where you'd HAVE to sell the car the resale possibilities and the future may not matter. The fact is in some way the smart person building a custom vehicle of any kind must at least consider who else may share their same wants and desires when building a car.

Hell, I know I am not going to live in my current house forever, so when Beth and I remodeled the entire place ourselves we took into consideration what other people might want as well, not just what I wanted or she wanted at this particular moment. I even thought about what I thought people might want in 3-5 years when we do sell it.

Originality seems to stay in style with Porsches and other vehicles as well, thats something that can also be added to, but sometimes you' can't ever go back there once "bastardized" enough..

I deal with folks who are making decisions about their investment and whats the best bang for the buck today and tomorrow all the time. As conversions have become more of an attraction in recent time I deal with more of the questions. people have told me their reasons for staying /4 and thats generally for the simplicity and ability to make very few modifications to optimize the package, generally meaning the vehicle is unaltered. The vehicle retains its character that differentiates it from others and according to what engine is applied it might even become a little more special than any other 4 cylinder. It might even dust a -6 or have people assume that it is a -6 because its so blistering fast.


....and how many 356s are being converted to TIV power? We'be built 1/2 dozen this year already. I am sorry, but converting a 914 to a -6 or converting a 356 to a TIV is much different than applying a SBC V8 into a 911. Who wants those cars? They are not generally (and historically) Porsche enthusiasts.


How many have Jaguar engines installed?? How many have Suby engines installed? A suby makes more power today as a -6 than most SBC engines do and can be installed for 1/2 the price, but do you see that? Don't see a lot of "cross-dressing" in other markets.


Nope and its absolutely fine and dandy if they throw another engine of the same "breed" in place to be bigger and faster. The difference is a 6 cylinder American car was just a cheaper version of that same car in V8 form, change the motor mounts, front springs and maybe the bellhouse and the V8 will drop right in.

Guess what, thats just like putting a big TIV into a 356, which is generally a welcomed thing for all but the most rare cars and is becoming a mainstream conversion for those who want to drive their cars.


Until one day when you decide to sell it to one of "them", whether you want to or not. The actions that are taken now directly impact those who may be interested in the car in 10 or 20 years and unfortunately things pop up that require cars to be sold at times and when that happens you want something desirable by the crowd that still has money and is willing to spend it. The economy we are seeing now has proven that, those with money today have it because they didn't make lousy decisions and didn't over commit when most everyone else did. They are still spending it, we are busier than ever!

This group of people is who you want to have appreciate your car if it ever needs to be liquidated without a loss and done quickly.

So what "they" think doesn't matter until the money in "their" wallet needs to fill yours.

.
....and I feel that they should have never had anything else.


Unless that "wart" or imperfection builds some character... or is memorable in some way to a particular group.. Cindy Crawford and Marilyn Monroe could have had cosmetic surgery to remove certain "trademarks", but neither did..


And theres mine...

A -6 conversion keeps character and adds to a 914s value in the eyes of the right people.. The -6 conversion will always be accepted by those who will spend the price of admission for a nice 914, just like a properly sorted and equipped-4 914 down the road.

Now I'll answer some questions that were posed:


Yes. The engine is 100% complete, dyno tuned and needs no break in period.

'
The engine is completely reconstructed with all original flaws addressed and then its properly made more "healthy". It comes in a crate so complete that if fuel, ignition and a starter was attached that it would fire up and run while sitting in the crate. I have had customers test fire engines in their crates before!

There is no page to describe what we do to every engine, because each is different- these aren't cookie cutters that are kept on a shelf. No two engines come to us needing the same items addressed. No two purchasers have the same set of desires, so we build and design engines based on wants, needs and what the application demands. Today about every component internally is replaced except the crankcase and crank gears, to include crank, heads, cam, lifters and etc. On the outside we reuse sheet metal, but its powdercoated. Its as close to "NEW" as is possible.

.
You can do 150HP for that price, because the sub systems required to meet the engine's capabilities are much less. On the other hand 200HP is another ball game, the required exhaust currently costs near 2K, but I am working to ensure thats a thing of the past and we are close right now.

150HP is what the 914 responds best to, it requires no tranny mods and no crazy brake mods to maintain a well balanced package. More power than 150 generally can't be used and is good for nothing more than bragging rights for a street vehicle. Keep the car simple, keep it light and nimble and keep it mostly original.


Thats the mindset that most have... You can take many routes with less expense, but some things are worth so much more in the long run


Who ever thought that one day that would be a true statement?? It took well over a decade of application for a lot of people to open their eyes to this reality.


No, since we know what it takes to produce the engine and know what hidden costs are related to it's installation lots of those variables are no longer. I know what it takes to make my engine live, the same things that I equipped it with during testing an application in my own vehicle over and over again.. I have one car that has had more than 80 engines installed into it.

When ya'll say "big hp large 4", what is that? What you're doing to the exhisting 2.0?

/Car noob, which is why I was looking for an article or post that explains all the engine options and what it involves for a car-idiot.

I use an existing 1.7/1.8 or 2.0 for a base engine, all are acceptable at our level of preparation.

You need to do lots of homework.. Spend 6+ months educating yourself before you buy anything. All the info necessary is here on this forum, my forums and others.. Just read and take notes, that makes the phone call you'll schedule with me one day much, much easier and more effective.

Oh absolutely, I'm still early in the research phase. Won't even be thinking of buying for many months.

Was just looking for pointers to good articles/posts. Searching, which I'm doing, isn't perfect

Subie ez30r 6

3.0 liter 206 hp 178 torque at the wheels, next conversion is the subie 3.6. Still have to figure out the exhaust vvt timing but it's about 35 hp more and 40 lbs higher torque.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLTLXkQirYM

You could do a 200-300HP Chevy conversion for $5-6K. Subie would be a little more. Rotary power can also be done around the same price.

I really like Raby's motors but they are still a little fragile compared to my V8 and by the time you get 200HP out of them they are very radical and don't have the same street manners as mine. If you are going to stay with a T4 engine, go with Raby's!

A bone stock chevy v8 can do 200hp and you can get one from Craigs List cheap. The engine adapter kit from Renegade will run you around $2k. You will need a radiator, Aluminum from Ebay $200. Misc other parts will run $500-1000. So this is just one option.

With a Subie (awesome!) you will spend $4-5K just on the engine (turbo), less if you just buy and old Outback and strip it. Adapter kit also available from Renegade. Even the transaxle can be retrofitted into a 914. A member here sells axle hub adapters.

I'm thinking of swaping to a 20B Rotary twin turbo (RX-7). 290hp stock at 8500rpm and 265 Ft lbs at 6500rpm. These engines can turn over 10000rpm. The engine itself is no bigger than (possibly smaller) your stock 914 engine. I would be able to drop 500 pounds of dead weight if I go this route. V8 weighs 800lbs

One more cool option is a 2000ish VW Passat Turbo. You can find them cheap. The engine and transaxle can both be installed in a 914. This will give you modern EFI and a modern shifting tranny. You can get a nice one for $4k than you just have to fab mounting brackets and do some minor wiring and fuel line work. You can also use similar year Audi's for the same swap but the prices are a little higher.

I've read all that extra weight from the v8 kinda messes with the handling of the car. Any thoughts on that?

It's like having a contestant from the Biggest loser in your passenger seat and trying to take fast turns....woo hoo!

Subie 6 weighs 320 lbs vs 800 for the v8

The V8 weighs 400 pounds more, an all aluminum block and heads would weigh about the same as a T4. You will also add some weight in the front with the radiator. You will need stiffer springs in the rear. The front to rear bias slightly changes but it will still handle better than 90% of the cars on the road.

My car has 930 Turbo suspension and brakes with 200lb springs in the rear. It handles great. Very predictable! It will out handle my 911 widebody and most 914's.

I have to say that if I ever converted a 914 to be radiator laden it would probably have an aluminum V8 in it or a Buick V6.. At least its still American and at least it is simple to work on.

Things from the land of the rising sun aren't my fancy even though the suby is a proven thoroughbred in many ways..

The entire engine and transaxle arrangement in our FP 914/4 weighs 385 pounds, Len just weighed it a few days ago.. Thats with everything in place from carburetors out.. FYI

I bastardized my car (It came to me as a wrecked 76 CA smog car. yuck!)

It cost less than $3k for a Mitsubishi V6, the turbo crap, the MegaSquirt, the radiator, the engine cradle (custom fabbed here in town), exhaust pieces, the adaptor from KEP, 911 SC front suspension, and the Ford EDIS stuff that we pulled off of a mustang. The roughly 300hp came at a cost, I lost both trunks (but will be regaining the back one). The weght is really close to the same as the original engine with all of the engine tin and fuel injection.

I built the car for me, for the grin I get when the boost gauge says "hey stupid, you're about to melt a piston" and my back is involuntarily getting cozy with the seat.

My next one will more than likely stay original; as I will be thinking about what sort of Porsche enthusiast would be taking over the reigns next. (*stay original means hanging onto the aircooled design and getting new parts from someone that has put a lot of research into making the right combinations that work for these cars)

Good stuff. What does the 3.2 Porsche engine weigh? Also, do you have to change transmissions with the 3.2, or can it handle that power?

Given the 914's age and numbers of decent cars left on the road, seems like if you have a good original 4-cyl 914, to simply leave it alone. Sure, build a 2056 or even a 2270, but leave the general configuration be as it was from the factory.

I use to be a really big six converter. Not so much anymore. Parts have far outwieghed the return on even the fun factor anymore.

I would rather have a clean, min rust 75' 1.8 FI over any configuration converted power plant "project" 914.

Clean 914's are so hard to find. Rust simply hides everywhere on these cars. Power plants stopped being the "value" of the 914 years ago. Value is all in the chassis now.

120hp in a 914 is a fun car.

+1... Some hack who has a cast iron 60's big block with headers made from sewer drain pipe, sure thats heavy. When I first learned of the V8 swap, I was very tempted. But I was also educated by someone who knows motors and what to install. Right off the back he stated the aluminum V8 only weighs something like 200lb more than the -6... like having a passenger in the right spot of the car. Check out the link below, the numbers probably don't take into account fluids, exhaust and injection weight, however it will give a good basis for weight comparison.

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html

I loved my hotted up 2L/4. So much fun for around $3k...I built it though, which saves some coin.

Is that from the stock 914 2.0?

Mine is a bus motor..I can't remember exactly but it has 60 or so horsepower. So getting too much HP out of it probably wouldn't work? I probably would have to find and buy a 2.0 if I were to go that route of 150 or so HP.

I've run a 3.6L 993 motor in my 914 since 1999 and still use the 914 transmission, although with shorter gears. If I raced it a lot it would need more PM. But if you are smooth and respect the machine, that transmission will last a very long time. That said...

A while back, I let a long-time friend drive my car. After he watched me do it for about 30 minutes (with instruction) I figured he would be kind to the car. Later in the day I arranged with another friend to let him drive her 993, a car he was considering for himself (not that one).

He had a good time but never understood smooth. I truly think he wanted to, and thought he was at first, but... dang. He has owned British sports cars in the past, so at the minimum I expected decent lines. But he was very busy shifting too much.

I finally had to relieve him of the con before he trashed my transmission. He couldn't understand light throttle and (relatively) synchronized shifts. Even if I factor in EXCITEMENT!!!!! and NERVOUS!!! it was too much. He'd never had that much power to modulate.

I have two 915 transmissions and have never had to put one in because the 914 transmission just won't break! It's almost disappointing! I'll get over it.

My motor went through two rebuilds when I had it. It was a stock '74 1.8 L-Jet to start. The motor was rebuilt with euro 2L P&C's, but the monkeys who tried to sort out the FI (purchased new injectors & fuel pump) charged me $2k and still couldn't get it to run right. I bought a set of Weber 40's and hoped that the smog law would change (I purchased the car in 2000, smog'd it and then it crapped out).

Drove it for 4 years like that, then the crank cracked in half (right between connecting rods, and it still ran!!! not very nicely though above 1200rpm. I purchased a counterweighted crank and an E cam (I think thats what it was called, it was hotter than stock), and put the motor back together. Ran great! Not sure if it was 120hp, but it was perfect for that car with 205's front/rear, bilstien HD all around, and 320i calipers in front and front calipers on the rear.

a 2056 motor running stock EFI can be very entertaining.
Very reliable, very streetable, and has plenty of punch for the track....like this one.

in this car

this motor was built for right around $2K, and it had KB pistons, Raby 9550 cam.
Most of the cost was the machining of parts to make it all work.

You know, that makes the 3.2 option a lot more temping. Same transmission, don't have to tear the car up for water cooling. Engine cost will up there though, but that's a lot of HP for the money.

Though, I did read it might need oil cooling?

964/993 engines don't have H2O, thats 996 and up. Your correct on oil though, the 3.6 engines need an external oil cooler setup, whereas the 3,2 is much more plug and play with cooler onboard.

You may not have to cut the car up for water cooling, but you will need to cut it up for oil cooling. and the cutting up is exactly the same.

I wanted a 6 to go in my car, but the cost for a good one was too much, and the rebuild too complicated for a total novice (me). A 6 in these cars (at least a 2.7 and up) can be scary fast in a 914. You will need to get bigger brakes and better suspension and tires.

The 2056 I built for my car was a 1.7 bus engine to start with. It is a great three gear motor, with 4th and 5th for cruising. At 120hp, you still won't win drag races. most minivans will be able to beat you, but you will be amazed with what the car feels like - pedal down for all of second and third gear. And then the corners.... After spending a weekend driving my 914 around, I nearly ran my Subaru off the road not thinking and hitting an on ramp at 914 cornering speed.

If you have never built a motor before, stay with a TIV. Its a great motor to learn on. That said, I built mine twice before I got it right (I learned about bearing clearances the expensive way - had very little oil pressure which led to an immediate tear down and rebuild). But I'm a stressed out idiot, so there is that too. Once you have clearences set, the engine goes together very easy and is bullet proof enough that even I could build one.

Zach

That's amazing that the weak little bus engine can be upgraded like that.

Can a ~60 hp bus engine be upgraded to the 2270? Or is that pushing it?

Sure, but at that point its just the case (assuming its in good condition) and the flywheel (assuming its in good condition) - and maybe the tin unless you are going to upright cooling. Everything else is swapped for new stuff.

And the case will need clearancing on the internals or the crank and rods will impact it.

That said, when I am done restoring my jeep, my next project will be to build a 2270 for my 914.

Zach

If everything is being replaced except those couple things, are there people/companies that build brand new air cooled engines from scratch? And if not, why not?

Hmmmm... something to think about!

The 3.6 needs external cooling regardless and it has to be a large system and move a bunch of BTUs. But if you are in a mild climate, the 3.2 and it's internal cooler may be enough. My 2.7 never needed an external cooler until I put it on the track. That said a smaller (than the 3.6 engine) cooler and the 3.2 will do just fine unless you're in hot climate and/or trackin' it. Depending on how you plumb it, a cooling system is fairly expensive since it's also dry sump.

Along with a long list of other stuff -12, -16 and/or -20 fittings, hose and metric-to-AN adapters, as well as an oil tank (stock or not) thermostat, etc for the dry-sump system makes a six a bit of a challenge to finance sometimes. My feeling is that unless you really like fabrication projects (like I do ) buy someone else's dream that got abandoned for whatever reason.

yes, its just a matter of time and money..

A 2056 with the proper internals is the way to go, 120hp with short 3rd and 4th gears is very quick and a blast to drive. Upgrading the suspension too and excellent 205x50 tires and the damn thing is a total blast to drive, cruises at 100mph all day plus get about 30mpg on the freeway.....Thats the way Porsche should have built em back in the day and they would have sold a lot more of em.

Why is the 2056 better than the 2270?

Its not "better" its different. The 2056 allows the use of stock FI, the 2270 does not. The 2056 assembles easier if you aren't using one of my kits, because it is a stock stroke engine.

The 2056 is a lesser modified engine, requiring less costly sub-systems to produce efficient power.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;hl=2056++2270

Found an older thread about that topic with plenty of opinions.

In one of your power point presentations you mentioned the 2270 needs carbs...which would be great for me since mine is dual webbers - though only 40s.

If you have 40s, they are still optimum for a 2270-150 HP engine with just some small venturi and jetting changes.

I keep seeing posts where people are building their engines for $2k (like the post with pictures in this thread), 3k, 4k...but your initial post says to expect to pay 5k-10k for an update?

Why such a big difference? Or is most of the money spent outside of the engine?


Edit: fixed terminology.

quality of parts and materials used in those parts.

First off, a conversion means "converting" you car to run with a different engine. Very different than upgrading your existing engine with performance parts. Converting to the Porsche 6 is the most costly. Especially if done cleanly. Other engines can be stuffed in much cheaper with more fab work required.

Upgrading your existing engine with you doing all the work costs the least. If you screw up you can easily double or triple the cost. If you build it right you save some serious coin.

Buying an engine kit or a turn key is less than a 6 but more than doing it yourself (if you did it right). It buys you piece of mind, tech support, more hp, and a warranty if you went with a good builder. They did the homework and dyno testing so you walk away with a quality product. There are only a few to chose from and only one I'd go to.

Sorry, I used the wrong terminology. I meant updating.

People say they update their engine for a couple grand. Jake's post had estimates for many grands. I was curious why.

Read through Jakes website and his powerpoint presentations for his engine kits and you'll see why there's a difference. Jake is selling an unassembled engine "system" that you put together rather than a bunch of parts ordered from a catalog. He machines your case and does all the foundation work so you can build something greater than the sum of the parts. The difference in money is comparing apples vs oranges with other kits.