I checked the garage archives for past threads on my problem, but cannot solve it. Last April, got my dual carbs (JAKE, new) from last year installed. Did the timing 28 degrees BTDC, adjusted the valves, synced the carbs, all at 7 and car pulling strong. Then last month, starting problems. After tests, replaced a cracked ign. sw. Two weeks later the starter went, so new starter. Last week driving in my small town, high 90's. After turning off car twice, no start no crank. Could hear the FP, and had oil and gen. lite, but no click from starter. Got a new starter today, and temp high 90's again. After two stops(turning off ign.) no start, no crank. Same thing, FP noise, and oil & gen. lite, no sound from the starter. Got car going with a push. Some one said could be my CDI got hot, it was to the touch. But I'm thinking "hot start"......any thoughts??

Will it crank up the next morning or after it cools off? If so, Sir Andy called it the "dreaded hot start" issue. Just went thru it myself. 2 sides on this one. One side says to correct the grounding issue and the other side (where I pitched my tent) said screw it. Drop a Ford Solenoid in the circuit and be done.The Bosch solenoid won't work correctly if voltage drops below 9.6v IIRC. Whilst the Ford style requires somewhere in the 3-4v range to operate. There is a recent thread on this subject here at W.c

76-914.......I have read various threads on the "hot start" issue, and have even contemplated using Mark Henery's post on this subject. I'am kinda ruling out the hot electronic ign. theory as my car started with a push start and if the CDI was to hot to start, the car would not have kept running after the push start....just throwing it against the wall to see what sticks.....

Standard "hot start" issue. Put the Ford solenid on there & call it good.

Yeah.....I'am leaning that direction, just don't understand how that could happen to a new starter installed on the same day. Should I relocate my CDI to a cooler location, as it is stuck in the rear corner of passenger side of engine, and it gets REAL Hot there???

Go with a 72-up 911 starter. They are almost twice the hp (914 .8 hp vs 911 1.5 hp) and do not have the hot start problem.

Check the ground wire on the relay under the passenger seat. I had the same problem and it just needed to be cleaned off.

If it won't crank, it is *not* the CDI...

That said, locating the CDI box in a cool location is a good thing, but it has nothing to do with the starter (not) cranking the engine...

install the starter solenoid (hot start kit). Some people don't like it as it is not "factory." But it is a lot easier on your wiring harness, and allows better current to get to your starter motor.

Zach

Bum starting at a gas station is a "factory" option I can live without.

Who the hell is going to lie down on the ground and look at your starter, then bitch about the solenoid.

Preaching to the choir, man. I've got one on my car. But I doubt Pat has one on his.

Zach

If it something nasty in the interlock cct a relay is not going to change matters much. If you aren't CW then get rid of that mess under the seat first.

If that doesn't work I'm on the 'fix the wiring properly' side of the house.

On one of my cars ('73) This is persistant problem. I have replaced the starter, installed Bosch hot start, replaced keyswitch and electric portion of key switch, rewired pin 6 (on 12 pin on relayboard) to solenoid with 10 gauge wire, new battery cables + and -, super cleaned all grounds, verified 12.8 volts from keyswitch to pin 1 on 14 pin on relay board when key is in start position, basically shotgunned the whole starter system....still on a hot day after turn off no crank....got tired of crawling under to screwdriver start, or asking for push, so I now have a piece of 10 guage wire routed from the + battery terminal to the area of the relay board ready to touch pin 6 of the 12 pin connector when this happens. works every time, but at least I can attempt to start with the key, leave switch on, then get out and pretend to check oil and then start the car instead of crawl under. One more important step is to verify neutral gear selector and set E brake....or P brake.

Hey thanks guys for all the great input. Update on events today: Went out to my shop to start the car seeing that it had all night and part of the morning to COOL off. No crank, no click, nada....what a PITA. At this point I don't know if putting the "hot start kit" is going to work, but will wire it in. Summer is for driving these beauties, and I'am not going to let this stop me!!

Start checking grounds. If its cold and won't start, it is not a hot start issue. There is the ground strap between the transmission and the bottom of the trunk, and that can come apart. There is also a ground location on the drivers side right above the drivers hell hole.

Zach

Before you take the time to wire in the relay have a look at the voltage at your solenoid if you are still in "won't crank" mode. If the voltage is low then sure try the relay. If it is zero then look under your passenger seat.

Haynes Chapter 9, section 45, para 3.
"for 74 models onward a logic relay switch prevents the engine from being started in additon to the aforementioned warning (seat belt buzzer)..."

The yellow wire that goes from the ignition switch to the relay board and on to the starter goes through this logic module. Any problems in your seatbelt warning system and your engine will not crank. Everything else (fuel pump, ecu...) will work - just you can't start it.

Search on "interlock". General response to late model intermittent start problem is to bypass the logic switch by splicing the two yellows together.

Not a guarantee by any means. But a common problem worth investigating.

UPDATE: Last night I wired the Ford solenoid per Mark Henery's diagram, and drawing in the Idiot Book. Started it several times, but then again it was cool. Late this morning, 90+ temps I drove it around town, shutting it off twice to park. After the second time, no crank on the starter. Have not investigated the ground strap on the tranny.....still too pissed!! But know that it has to be done. This was never a problem b-4 during the summer months, and dare I say it.....when it was FI. Local VW shop owner suggested to put cold water on the starter if it was hot to see if it would start. If it was HOT????? The whole fricken engine bay was hot, and I saw bubbles in my fuel filter Oh yeah....just an FYI for those who may not know it: only fuel up without the ethenol added..did I spell that right?? Well, you know what I mean. Only premium grade, it will help cut down the "vapor lock" blues. For what it's worth.

When you replaced the starter, did you get a new solenoid or did you re-use the original? 'Cause it's starting to sound like a solenoid issue at this point.

The ignition just switches the solenoid - the solenoid switches the starter motor.

So the first thing to check (although if you just added the Ford start-assist relay, you did this...) is the small wire that connects to the solenoid. If that's loose, nothing else will happen...

Could be the solenoid is sticking. I have heard of cases of an old starter pinion bushing still stuck in the recess in the transaxle preventing the shaft from moving. Or the starter being cocked a bit in mounting. Or just old dirty gummy hardened grease on the Bendix linkage keeping stuff from moving like it should. I should remember if 914's use a bushing or not - I seem to recall they do not, but you never know what insidious evil a DAPO may have wrought. Check everything...

It sounds like you've done all the electrical stuff you should. Time to recheck the mechanical bits.

If you're really at your wits' end, there are gear-reduction-drive starters that get good reviews. I'm sure I have seen threads here on them. It's what I'm planning on using in the 911 instead of the 'proper' 1,5-HP motor...

One thing I always forget to mention is the ford solenoid must have a good ground on the bracket.
Check and clean all your grounds, tranny strap, at the battery terminal, where the cable bolts to the body, etc.

I did not know that when you purchase a new starter, you have the option of using a used solenoid?? I'am on my second new starter in a one week time frame and both came with new solenoids as one unit. The first starter I took back to the parts house which they tested and said it was good, but hard to tell without being under a load. So they gave me another, which is doing the same, except now I have a "click" when I turn the key. What year 911 starter would I ask for? Does it matter on the year of my 14....it's a '76. And what about this gear reduction drive that you metioned...where does one find them??
P.S. I now have the ground strap off and just one end(tranny end) is greasy, but no rust on either end, or on strap.

Starter issues come with the territory for old cars, so this topic comes up a lot.
Consequently, search is your friend.

when I used search for "+gear +reduction +starter" I got 3 pages of threads.

This one is typical and BTW answers all your questions:

Gear Reduction Starter Thread

Anyone selling Porsche parts will know the "1.5 HP starter" I believe they came in with the 911SC in the early '80's. As a result there are thousands of them in dismantlers throughout the US.

BTW - it is possible for the starter motor brushes to stick or a bad spot on the commutator to prevent contact - but I wouldn't expect it on 2 in a row, especially if they've just been done...

I went round and round on this too. Haha. Ended up with the hitorque starter AND a new battery. The Optima only lasted about a year!

Optimas don't like to sit for very long.

After two starters I would start to try and improve my mechanical/electrical expertise on the 914. Probably the use of a voltage/amps meter will help. You will need these skills anytime you like to own old cars. The hot start problem is because the start circuit is so long on the air cooled vw's and 914 and probably the 911. Thats why bosch made a hotstart kit. When things heat up they require more amps to work. When connections get bad, that means the circuit looses some of the power to make things work when they get hot. Loose connections also get hot and get more resistance and that takes more amps to make everything work than the circuit can provide. I do find it hard to believe a big ford solenoid uses less amps to pick than the smaller relays normally used on a hotstart kit though. A ohm meter will tell the truth after checking each one. Maybe it's already been done and I am wrong but the ford solenoid is huge and has a much bigger winding inside. More wire means more amps.

Anyway the same circuit is used after the hotstart kit is installed up to the solenoid so if there is a bad connection in the start circuit it won't get fixed by the kit. The ford solenoid needs to be on a clean metal surface for it to ground properly. The tranny ground strap can look good but 30 years of never being removed and remounted will not guarantee a good ground. Even using a ohm meter will not tell if enough amps to pick the solenoid can get through the ground to pick a starter solenoid. The same with using a volt meter. 12v does not mean 20 amps 12v supplying the circuit it can really only be .5 amps and it will still say 12v. If jumping the terminals on the starter turns the motor over the starter is good. To fix this right a complete check of all the components in the start circuit needs to be done including the starter sw the seat belt circuit and the connection on the relay board. Once you get familiar with all the components you will be able to handle a lot of other 914 electrical issues easier. It's not good to jump around because a problem can be put on a circuit while trying to fix it. I would start at the ign sw and go toward the rear but it might be easier to start at the relay board and use a jumper from the battery to see if a good 12v supply works there but you gotta know what pin you are on and double check. The relay board check cuts all the stuff in the passenger compartment out. If that makes it start then go to the seat belt circuit. If it starts from the terminal at the seatbelt relay then check the relay out. If the relay is good and all the terminals are good then the connector on the ign sw is the next and final place for the 12v supply, you can jump the terminals in the connector there. I don't remember if there is any other safety switches involved on the 914 start circuit other than the dang seatbelt.

Course you could get high tech and put a remote start on it and forget all the old stuff, but you might want a safety sw on the clutch petal.

What type of Ford solenoid do you install?

I had a similar problem several years back with the starter on my 76 Dodge PU. I had put a life time warranty starter on so, I pulled the headers to pull the starter and got a new one from the auto store. Put new one on, hooked up headers - no start. Boy was I pissed. Pulled the headers and starter, took starter back - they tested it and it was OK. Put it back on, headers too and guess what, it worked. Two days later, no work again. Yep - I'm pissed again.
Final result was a ( birdcaged) connection at the solenoid. This is where the multi strand wire gets buldged out and looks kind of like an old wire bird cage. Well some of the strands break. Soon you have a sometimes it will work and sometimes not.
Carefully check the connectors on the end of your wires and replace as necessary. We take these for granted and quite often they are the real problem.
Tom

O.K. now I'm really concerned about getting a new starter and not having the teeth on my ring gear tore up! Let's see: high torque starters should be used for high compression motors. IMI, oem Bosch, Proline, a 911SR68X(1.5hp) are all high torque starters?? I know these two rebuilds I bought from Auto Zone seem to suck so what starter do I buy if I don't want to tear up the teeth off my ring gear? I just want to start my car and drive it.

I bought my hi-torque starter on E-Bay (as have more than a few others on here) and the only problems I remember reading about concerned using the spacer shim or not.
Mike